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| Moderated by: Tony Provencher, Richard Hefner | Page: 1 2   |
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| Fret Size | Rate Topic |
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| Posted: Sun Jan 16th, 2005 03:30 am |
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1st Post |
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1four5 Approved 
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This post is mostly an observation, and sort of a question reguarding both ukes and guitars. A year ago I got this guitar from Goodwill. It's sound is booming and very accetable...however it's not it's sound that makes it my favorite guitar. It's it's fretability. From the second I first played it, to having had the opportunity over the last year to play a lot of other guitars...none other feels as good for leads and being able to hit bar chords without dead strings. It was several weeks after getting it that I noticed it's frets were huge. Much fatter and higher than my buddies guitars. I researched the net and learned about something called "jumbo" frets. At some point in this guitar's life (or possibly built this way...I don't know) this guitar was fitted with jumbo frets. Finger pressure for clean notes is effortless. Even with a flat fretboard, I rarely get dead strings when making bar chords all the way up the neck. I've played much more valuable guitars with better sound, but never one that feels better to play to me. I wouldn't trade this guitar for anything else I've played so far...including all them fancy ones at the music store with very big price tags. Recently this has happened again, only this time with my blue uke. Right away I couldn't help but notice it fretted easier than my Hilo or Lanikai, ESPECIALLY making bar chords. I compared it's fret size, and sure enough, the blue uke has fatter and higher frets than the other ukes. Now I don't have near the experience that some of you'all have..but I have enough to know the difference between the same effort making clean notes and chords on one instrument...yet muted sometimes deadened buzzing notes and chords on another (often supposidely better more expensive) instrument. So I guess my question would be, if larger frets make playing so much easier (at least for me)...why is this not more popular...or even more standard than what's "stock" on guitars and ukes out there today? Unless I'm missing something, it would seem like a nobrainer to me. 
____________________ These are the good times! |
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| Posted: Sun Jan 16th, 2005 12:07 pm |
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2nd Post |
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Richard Hefner Administrator 
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Hey Dean... I'll leave the frets question to the frets experts, but I just wanted to mention I was at the Carolina Uke Strummers meeting yesterday and there was a girl there from Virginia who mentioned buying an instrument from the Goodwill online store. My wife nudged me and asked me if I knew about that, and I said I did because I've seen your mention of it before. Then I started to tell the girl about you buying instruments there but before I could tell her she said she had gotten the idea from 1four5 mentioning it on ezFolk. You're gettin' around! 
____________________ Richard Hefner MP3 Page: http://www.ezfolk.com/audio/richardhefner Running Blog: http://old-runner.com |
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| Posted: Sun Jan 16th, 2005 03:11 pm |
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3rd Post |
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1four5 Approved
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Thanks Richard! That warms my heart! Goodwill is an awesome organization, and not only is it nice to get a good deal, but the money goes to a great cause (mostly employing disabled or handicaped etc...). I will admit that it was tempting not to spread the word for fear that the more who knew about it, the more the prices would go up. However, this selfishness wouldn't benifit Goodwill in any way. I will admit that the longer I keep an eye on the site, the higher I've noticed the prices on some things...most noticably ukes, get in the last several months. I won a Harmony bari last week for @$60...6 months ago it would have been lucky to bring $10. Also, for anyone who's never checked it out...it's not just guitars and ukes...my gosh it's whatever gets donated...I've seen player pianos, tons of flutes/clarinets/horns and other wind instruments, banjos/mandos/dulcimers, lots of sheet music, amps, violins...you name it. If your a handyman, or know a good instrument repair shop...it's a GREAT place to get good deals on fixeruppers. Goodwill is always forthcoming about the condition of an instrument, and fixeruppers sometimes go for pennies. The people are great and very often I've "e-mailed" the seller for more information or photos on an instrument, and they are always friendly and willing to help. For anyone who doesn't know, most states have their own "E-Com" Goodwill store. It operates very much like ebay, where they simply auction their items over the internet (for a VERY good cause). BTW, if ezFolk people ar bidding on stuff there...it might be worth mentioning it here. I would hate to drive the price up on an instrument if I knew someone here wanted it.
____________________ These are the good times! |
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| Posted: Sun Jan 16th, 2005 03:26 pm |
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4th Post |
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klezmando Approved 
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An interesting observation. I can't answer the why, but when I got my Martin D-21 refretted my repair guy asked if I wanted jumbo frets ,and said that many of my friends guitars which he has worked on, have jumbo frets. It made a big difference on the Martin also, making a great sounding guitar which was somewhat difficult to play, very easy to play.
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| Posted: Sun Jan 16th, 2005 06:15 pm |
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5th Post |
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ira Approved
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this is a big topic in the mando world- to get large (usually banjo size) frets or not. when i got my custom instrument (btw- the guy i had make my mando also makes bouzoukis, guitars, octave mandos etc...- reasonable and quality- http://www.kennaquhair.com- tell doug that ira sent ya) i got the large frets- makes fretting sooooooooo much easier, especially for leads. you just need to glide and give a little push instead of the gorilla grip to make it sound clean. can't imagine it wouldn't help with any fretted acoustic instrument. just my 2 (ok-5 cents) peace, ira
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| Posted: Sun Jan 16th, 2005 10:20 pm |
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6th Post |
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1four5 Approved
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Thank you Ira and Klezmando for confirming my suspicions! I didn't know if it was just me. Having had these experience at my level, I'm beginning to wonder why the music industry is holding back on something so simple, that could make playing fretted instruments so much better for everyone. It also leads me to wonder what would be the advantage, if any, for them to continually manufacture instruments with such small frets. As long as I'm on this tangent of playability, I would also like to address fret board width. This is another area where my old Goodwill junker shines. The fretboard is slightly wider than my buddies standard guitars. When I play my shiney nice new Fender parlor guitar, I'm cramped for finger room and this leads to a lot of frustration. I LOVE the room I have on my classical guitar. My junker is a happy mediuim. Standard stock guitars, including the high priced nice guitars at the music store all seem like they were made for people with dinkey hands and teency tiney finger tips with no finger nails. I'm confounded as to why instruments are made with dinkey frets and narrow fretboards. Over 20 years ago I had a freind who converted a 12 string into a six string just for the finger spacing issue. The perfect medium between what the companies offered and the monster size of a classical fretboard. It is still in my memory as one of the nicest playing guitars I've tried. When I built my blue uke, I had the option of leaving the fretboard nice and wide, which I did, and it's awesome. I might add that the fretboard on my blue uke with only 4 strings is the same width as a standard 6 string guitar fretboard. My buddy Tim3Finger and I have talked about this a lot, and wonder why the music companies don't listen (maybe no one is begging them to change). A wider fret board with jumbo frets would surely make a lot of us fat thumbed beginners a lot happier.
____________________ These are the good times! |
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| Posted: Tue Jan 18th, 2005 12:39 am |
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7th Post |
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banjo brad Super Moderator 
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All right - some things from off of the top of my (rapidly balding) head, and dug out from the inner recesses of this aging brain: 1. Jumbo frets (tall suckers), can cause slightly larger shifts is pitch when fretted (when you fret the string, you tighten it, the taller the fret the sharper the pitch). Not much, maybe, but when you lurk on the the banjo-L, you can hear a lot of discussion on this. 2. Lower frets also mean more speed in fretting, for the quick-lickers among us. 3. Fingerboard width depends a lot on style of music, and type of strings to be used. 3a. Classical music usually can want a fretted string and a neighboring string to be sounded at the same time without muting either one. This is easier if the spacing allows it (i.e., wider fingerboard.) 3b. Most classical guitars use nylon on gut strings, and need space for the lower tension string to vibrate without running into a finger fretting an adjacent string (really just part of 3a.). When I bought my Martin 00-18 in '64, it was presented as a "speed neck", and it had a really narrow, arched fingerboard. I found it very difficult to fingerpick, and it really was meant to be used with a flatpick (another reason for varying-width fingerboards - how are you going to play it?). 'Course, I really regret selling that axe - it cost me $150 in '64, used, with a great hardshell case (sob). Anyway, that's my $0.0002 worth (adjusted for the current stock market index).  Keep on pickin'Brad Last edited on Tue Jan 18th, 2005 12:41 am by banjo brad ____________________ ezFolk Help Brad Prickly Pear Music Banjo Brad's ezFolk page TOTMC |
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| Posted: Tue Jan 18th, 2005 11:54 am |
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8th Post |
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1four5 Approved
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Thanks for the insight Brad! I did do a little web reasearch on jumbo frets, and yep...there are two ways to improve playability, and one is scalloped fretboard, and the other is jumbo frets. I did read that the only draw backs were tune...where as if you fretted hard, you could pull a note slightly sharp. At my level, a slightly sharp crisp clean note (that I could never tell was sharp) is much much much better than a thud, buzz, thunk, dead muted note. From my limited experience, I do have to differ with the speed issue, at least for my playing...the pressure needed for a clean note is so much less, I fly all over my jumbo fretted junker much faster than, like say my Fender Parlor, where the same pressure and speed only produces a bunch of thunks and rattles. The difference is huge...hince enough concern to have started this thread. I guess fretboard width is a preference thing. Take a D7 open chord shape...my fingers are average size, my nails are cut to the nub...I play my anorexic neck Fender and I simply cannot get the middle string to ring...if I do, I'm sacrificing an open string by touching it with an outer finger. I pick up my junker, and don't have a problem. I am really beginning to consider looking for a junker 12 string to experiment with and convert to a 6 string. Maybe it's just me 
____________________ These are the good times! |
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| Posted: Wed Jan 19th, 2005 10:55 am |
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9th Post |
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1four5 Approved
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This talk got me to blow the dust off my greco classical guitar last night, and do some stuff I've been wanting to do to it, but haden't gotten around to. I put a new saddle on it, restrung it, and tried some of the blues licks I've been developing (thanks to my uke) and man...I think I am about to rekindle my love affair with the old classical! What a blast. I've spent a lot of time developing fingerpick patterns on my uke, then last night, taking them to the classical and trying the same patterns on say the middle, or low 4 string groups made for some cool blues. Plenty of room on the classical fretboard. I had tried some of these ideas on my Fender parlor, but only ended up frustrated. Anyone else play non classical stuff on a classical guitar? Last edited on Wed Jan 19th, 2005 10:58 am by 1four5 ____________________ These are the good times! |
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| Posted: Wed Jan 19th, 2005 07:09 pm |
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10th Post |
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HowlinHobbit Approved 
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1four5 wrote:Anyone else play non classical stuff on a classical guitar? Willie Nelson.  Howlin' Hobbit (http://www.howlinhobbit.com) Got Uke? Snake Suspenderz (http://www.snakesuspenderz.com) Hot jass, Hokum and Novelty music... with a bite!
____________________ Howlin' Hobbit Got Uke? MySpace ezFolk UkeLand |
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| Posted: Thu Jan 20th, 2005 12:44 am |
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11th Post |
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Jackie Approved
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I'm the "girl"-- (that made my day!) from VA and CUKES-- I got a nice Bach trombone from Goodwill, after reading of 1four5's success there. Now I can play with my daughter, who nabbed my original trombone :-). Thanks for the tip!
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| Posted: Thu Jan 20th, 2005 01:17 am |
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12th Post |
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1four5 Approved
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Hi Jackie! You are more than welcome! Goodwill has given me the opportunity to have some great instruments, learn a little about fixing them up, and help a great cause. It's great to see you found a great instrument there too! Welcome to ezFolk!
____________________ These are the good times! |
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| Posted: Thu Jan 20th, 2005 07:11 pm |
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13th Post |
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ira Approved
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the wider fretboard is wonderful as well. no muting strings, more comfortable in chording and in single note fretting. love it!!!!
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| Posted: Fri Jan 21st, 2005 05:49 pm |
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14th Post |
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Frets_ Approved 
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Just for the record I'm 5'4".... (but darn cute) Frets 
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| Posted: Thu Jan 27th, 2005 01:44 am |
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15th Post |
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banjo brad Super Moderator
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ifour5 said"Anyone else play non classical stuff on a classical guitar? Bud and Travis, The Limelighters, Othmar Libert(sp?), a well-known classical guitarist (I'll remember the name as soon as I sign off) who did an entire album of Scott Joplin Rags (You have to hear this!), and, oh, yeah, me 1four5 - The thinner frets = faster speed thing really is related to amount of pressure required to fret a note. With practice, I hear, one can learn to apply a very small amount of pressure to a thin fret, and get a clear note, and it is faster to move from one note to another on this type of fingerboard, therefore the thin frets found on most solid-body electric guitars. Man, I wish I could think of his name, I have the vinyl, it is just packed still from the moves. I saw him in person in the 80's at Pierce College in the San Fernando Valley when I was taking classical guitar classes. Carlos Barbosa-Lima!!!!!!!!!!!! Came to me this morning - does that mean I'm slow on the uptake? Keep on pickin'Brad Last edited on Thu Jan 27th, 2005 11:18 pm by banjo brad ____________________ ezFolk Help Brad Prickly Pear Music Banjo Brad's ezFolk page TOTMC |
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| Posted: Thu Jan 27th, 2005 11:19 pm |
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16th Post |
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gbu Approved 
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That's weird, I've heard exactly the opposite about solid-body electric guitars (that they tend to have jumbo frets for speed, and that that speed demon players like Ingwe Malmsteen, Steve Vai, etc., often have jumbo frets and scalloped fretboards). Maybe jumbo frets increase the danger of fret buzz, though...
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| Posted: Fri Jan 28th, 2005 11:42 am |
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17th Post |
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1four5 Approved
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It's just my personal experience (which isn't much) that when I'm playing with the jumbo frets, I can go faster. It's as if the string doesn't have to contact the fretboard to get the note...all I gotta do it touch the string and I got the note. I recently traded away a VERY NICE parlor guitar (normal frets) because I couldn't get it to play as fast or clean as my old junker with the jumbos. Speaking of the old junker, I put a bone saddle on it this week. First time I've ever tried one. MAN!!! Didn't change the bass tone much, but the high strings went from ok to BRILLIANT.  I could only imagine what this could do for a uke!...hmmmmm....
____________________ These are the good times! |
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| Posted: Sat Jan 29th, 2005 12:52 am |
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18th Post |
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banjo brad Super Moderator
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It also, I think (and remember, we are talking about the neurons in my 60+ year-old-noggin firing properly, here), I remember something about the old solid-bodies using light gauge strings, which need far less pressure to fret. Myself, speed is a product of being really sure of where the notes are, and being able to get there cleanly in time. In other words, "I ain't there yet, on guitar, banjo, uke, or especially fiddle!"  Keep on pickin'Brad
____________________ ezFolk Help Brad Prickly Pear Music Banjo Brad's ezFolk page TOTMC |
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| Posted: Sun Jan 30th, 2005 12:24 pm |
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19th Post |
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gbu Approved
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Just replaced my ukulele's nut and saddle with bone yesterday as well. It did make a difference -- little bit sweeter sound, little bit louder, little bit more sustain. A good trade-off for having the living room filled with cow bone dust .
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| Posted: Sun Jan 30th, 2005 12:53 pm |
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20th Post |
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gbu Approved
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OK, I decided to look at my trusty Guitar Player Repair Guide by Dan Erlewine. I'll just quote the whole section on fret wire selection:
Well, a nice typing exercise if nothing else. Sounds like things are even more confused than we thought, but I guess the trade-off is between buzz, bad slides, and possibly bad intonation with the big frets, and worse sustain and more difficult fretting or whatever with the smaller ones.
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