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| Moderated by: Tony Provencher, Richard Hefner | Page: 1 2 3   |
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| Who can read music? Who can read tabs? | Rate Topic |
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| Posted: Wed Jan 31st, 2007 03:43 pm |
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1st Post |
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Philj200 Approved 
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Back in the cave, while eating velociraptor ribs and grits, I taught myself to read music. I had to since my hearing is not all that good. It was the only way to be sure I was really the right melody notes. Mostly just the melody leadlines. But then I picked up a bit more through purchassed sheet music. Never got to the sight-reading stage. I'm told sight-reading is very difficult on strings instruments becasue of the time-needed to figure out fingering. (Advantage keyboard.) Along the way, I also stumbled across tablature. It irritated me from the get-go. I didn't like being locked into someone else's esthetics...even if they were solid musicians teaching good stuff. Hey, I'm difficult. What can I say. I found standard notation freer and allowed a lot more interpretation. It was never a problem before. Because it was never an issue. Now I'm playing in this big contra-dance thing and they are totally locked into written music... in standard notation. It makes sense. It would be insane to write tabs for fiddle, guitar, banjo, etc... when we can all read (or should be able to read) the same ledger notes. Besides, I doubt there are tablature pieces written for pennywhistle. In the month and a half I've been with them, my music reading is improving. It has to. That's a good thing. (Oh we can improvise with the tune. I certainly do. But we have to hit the chords changes on the buton and our timing has to be very tight.) I guess if you want to learn to play a piece one way, tablature will get you there. But with all the thinking done by someone else, moving passed the written tab to improvisations and jamming could be difficult. To me, it comes donw to standard music notation presents you with a song. You have to figure out how to play it. Tablature teaches you to play a song exactly one way. And that way, by definition, is not your own. I yield the floor for rebuttals. . Last edited on Wed Jan 31st, 2007 03:45 pm by Philj200 ____________________ My MP3 Section: http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1143/ My Myspace area: http://myspace.com/philj200 |
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| Posted: Wed Jan 31st, 2007 05:49 pm |
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2nd Post |
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nizer Approved 
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No rebuttal from here - seems like pretty sound reasoning to me. Good for you for expanding your musical skills. I haven't learned how to read music yet - I'm still working on books.
____________________ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://ezfolk.com/audio/nizer |
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| Posted: Wed Jan 31st, 2007 07:04 pm |
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3rd Post |
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banjo brad Super Moderator 
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Rebuttal: I have to disagree with you on this one, Phil.  I learned to read music as a boy, piano lessons from 3rd through 8th grade. I became adept at playing the music as presented on the page. When I started teaching myself guitar, I figured out where the notes were on the frets and followed chord charts. I taught myself classical guitar and played for over 40 years. The guitar was my only instrument, and I was unable to learn songs without notation. In 2000 I started learning the 5-string banjo. Immediately I ran into trouble with that pesky 5th string. When reading notation, the high G was to be fretted at the 5th fret of the first string, not the 5th string! So, I looked at tab and found that it not only got me away from the note-per-string/fret mentality, it freed my mind to let the music come from my fingers, not the dots on the page. After using tab for a while, I found that it is a guideline to the tune, not a roadmap. By listening to many different versions of a tune, and using a tab to initially familiarize myself with the pattern of the tune, it is easier to make the tune my own. I was never able to do that with notation. And, having used tab to learn banjo, I find that I am back to notation for the fiddle. But, having been freed by tab, notation is now also looked on as a guideline, although it still has that stern demeanor of the academic. (Besides, there is more tab available for OT banjo than notation. Fiddle tabs are weird because of the lack of frets and the many, many confusing different systems.) Your rebuttal: Brad
____________________ ezFolk Help Brad Prickly Pear Music Banjo Brad's ezFolk page TOTMC |
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| Posted: Wed Jan 31st, 2007 07:12 pm |
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4th Post |
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Charlie Approved 
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Phill I can read music by looking at it and saying FACE or EVER GOOD BOY DOES FINE, But never have been able to read fast enough to play it, but I do study it so as to get the rest and othe time signatures in to it, When I play my concertina or button accordion, I read the words of the song and use the notes to follow, But first I listen to the song if possible and go from there by ear Learning to play the mandolin, I do use tab to learn the song, but I put my own spin to it and it will be different from the way some one else did it. So I guess I use it all to try and learn a song, mostly by ear Charlie
____________________ Yesterdays Tomorrow is Today http://www.ezfolk.com/audio/charlesculbertson |
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| Posted: Wed Jan 31st, 2007 07:30 pm |
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5th Post |
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VintageFL Approved
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I can do both but I rarely do either. Most of the time I work out songs by ear and write down the chord names over the lyrics. If I don't know the name of the chord I'm playing (which is often the case with the more weird chords I've been playing lately), I write down the notes and I figure out what it is, or if I have a lot of difficulty with that step, I cross-reference it in a chord encyclopedia. I feel a little sorry for people who just learn to read tabs without learning a little bit of musical theory about how chords are built and how to read basic notation. I think they're shortchanging and limiting themselves by not knowing these things. I would think that if you start out with tabs and only use them, it would be a hard habit to break down the road. I sort of cringe whenever I see beginners asking for tabs instead of for chord names and lyrics to a song. I can understand it for fingerstyle songs where you want to play exactly like someone else, but for strummed songs it makes no sense to ask for tabs.
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| Posted: Wed Jan 31st, 2007 07:45 pm |
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6th Post |
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Philj200 Approved
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Fairly stated gentlemen: Brad said, " using a tab to initially familiarize myself with the pattern of the tune, it is easier to make the tune my own." Charlie said, "use tab to learn the song, but I put my own spin to it and it will be different from the way some one else did it." Fine by me. It's the people who learn tunse via tabulature and cannot depart from it that I was probably thinking of.They don't know the tune. They just know one way to play it. To me, that's a very different thing. Tab for fiddle is a new one on me. I can see it as possible, but just never have never seen it. In ensemble playing, (as I'm now involved with) tabs just can't work. Looking at a new piece (one you've not familiar with) of sheet music -- notation or tablature-- and playing it at the correct speed is "sight reading." Not many professional can pull that very handy trick off. That's why they (and everyone else) practices. The most I can realitistically hope for it to get an accurate idea of the tune and timing...even if at a slower than supposed to pace from the sheet music. Figuring out timing in notation is tough (especially if you don't know the tune). The time I spent working on Mississippi Sawyers yesterday proves that. In notation, timing is not really part of the system. It assumes you already have an idea of the piece. The best reference to time tablature has is the little flags and marks to idicate whole, half, quarter notes etc. And those timing marks are grafted on from (roll of drums) standard music notation. So becoming proficient in tablature means you have to absorb some music notation. But the one trump I see s that a melody in notation can be played on any instrument. A melody in tablature is limited to one instrument, in one tuning. Added a few minutes later: I suspect Brad reads notation much better than I do. "Most of the time I work out songs by ear and write down the chord name over the lyrics." --I do as well. And that's fine once you have the chops to do it. Sometimes though, a melody is so beautiful or complex that only seeing it written down can let you produce it. " Last edited on Wed Jan 31st, 2007 07:54 pm by Philj200 ____________________ My MP3 Section: http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1143/ My Myspace area: http://myspace.com/philj200 |
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| Posted: Wed Jan 31st, 2007 07:52 pm |
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7th Post |
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gerry mcgandy Approved 
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My dad is a jazz horn player. His music never brought down the walls of any Jericho, but I can hear how it could. He reads music - he had to learn this way to play with a Showband as they were called (and fondly remembered in Ireland). I've always played by ear, I struggle with any form of musical notation, I can't seem to tune my eyes into what my ears want to hear. That's alright, I often can't get my ears into tune either.
____________________ Gerry McGandy http://mp3mart.net http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/556/ |
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| Posted: Thu Feb 1st, 2007 01:20 am |
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8th Post |
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banjo brad Super Moderator
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"I suspect Brad reads notation much better than I do." Not if you're reading it and playing the banjo to it! Another plus for me on tab for the banjo is not having to learn 4 (or more) fingerings by dots on the page for 4 (or more) different tunings. I remember one exercise my piano teacher used to throw at me occassionally in the last couple of years of lessons: 1. A piece of piano music I had never seen before. 2. 3 minutes to inspect it - sitting in a chair away from the piano 3. Set the metronome a bit slower than the speed on the piece 4. Play it! (Also known as sight-reading, a favorite at some competitions, and also part of entrance exams to the music schools. Although I never participated in either of those options.) I wasn't very good at it! "I also stumbled across tablature. It irritated me from the get-go. I didn't like being locked into someone else's esthetics" See, to me, that was notation. Brad
____________________ ezFolk Help Brad Prickly Pear Music Banjo Brad's ezFolk page TOTMC |
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| Posted: Thu Feb 1st, 2007 10:59 am |
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9th Post |
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1four5 Approved 
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I never learned to read music, and don't have the patience to even look at TAB. I'd rather just pick up my instrument and play it. Lyric sheets with chords penciled in where needed is the closest I've ever come to music on paper.
____________________ These are the good times! |
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| Posted: Thu Feb 1st, 2007 01:01 pm |
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10th Post |
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James Connolly Approved 
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I dont read music or tab sheets but have a good ear for music. I would like to learn but having way too much fun playing straight. The only formal training I ever had was with the Christian Brothers School in the choir where if you sang out of tune you got a clout on the ear, I always liked to harmonize, wondered why i was going so deaf as a child. JamC
____________________ James (Seamus) Connolly http://ezfolk.com/audio/jamesconnolly http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/422/popmp3.php http://www.myspace.com/celticseamus |
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| Posted: Thu Feb 1st, 2007 01:26 pm |
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11th Post |
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Philj200 Approved
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Last night I was working on a reply to Brad when my computer crashed. Just as well. He is comfortable with his opinions and they work. Brad I wish you well. I take a different path. I find it easy and relaxing to pick out a tune by ear (as best as my ears let me). It's also fun to work from a lyric sheet with chord indications. But to me that is a private kind of music. It's the music you play by yourself. I do it all the time. But when you are in the habit of playing this way, your tunes become all your own... timing shifts to fit your interpretation, chords change, modulate, nothing wrong with this. It's a version of the folk process. But it makes jamming difficult. And accompanying someone who can only play this way becomes a trial. And I do a lot of that. Back to the subject: Here's something that tablature cannot do. When I learned my second Travis piece (The first was Saturday Night Shuffle, the second was Blue Bell), I realized that they were both in C-major. Hmmm.... I took a few pieces I was already playing on guitar, some in C, some in other keys and tried an experiment. If I played them all in C, but up an octave from they singer's lead line, the melody was almost always comfortable on the first and second string. Start a good Travis patten going, pick out the melody on the high strings, toss in a connective run, thump a bass line between chords... voila instant solo! Try it yourself right now. Take something simple.... Streets of Laredo. Play in C with the melody on the high strings. Or better yet, capo up four to sound in E-major. Post it here and someone else will add a first position guitar part... or something.
____________________ My MP3 Section: http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1143/ My Myspace area: http://myspace.com/philj200 |
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| Posted: Thu Feb 1st, 2007 02:06 pm |
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12th Post |
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VintageFL Approved
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"It's also fun to work from a lyric sheet with chord indications. But to me that is a private kind of music. It's the music you play by yourself. I do it all the time. But when you are in the habit of playing this way, your tunes become all your own... timing shifts to fit your interpretation, chords change, modulate, nothing wrong with this. It's a version of the folk process. But it makes jamming difficult. And accompanying someone who can only play this way becomes a trial. And I do a lot of that." Hmm. I'm in the "habit" of playing this way all the time. Granted, I'm not playing banjo, I'm playing ukulele. But if you are a good ear player and know your chords and lyrics and know how the song goes, how does that mean your rhythm or timing automatically goes haywire? Mine doesn't. Chords change? Again, if you write out your own chord and lyric sheet and learn the song, why would the chords change unless you've forgotten them? I play at a weekly folk jam with others using this process and people have no problem accompanying me. I'll tell you the ones who do, they're the ones who bring a giant binder of tabs or song sheets, and have to turn to song X in order to play along, and that's only if you're playing in the same key as the song in the binder. Those who can move between keys and follow a song by ear have no problem whatsoever. Conversely, I can usually accompany anyone else by ear because I've learned the most common chord progressions. Alll I have to do is determine the key and I can follow along. Last edited on Thu Feb 1st, 2007 02:07 pm by VintageFL |
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| Posted: Thu Feb 1st, 2007 02:47 pm |
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13th Post |
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Philj200 Approved
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I think we're breaking into two valid subjects. 1. The relative advantages/drawbacks of notation v. tablature. 2. How we learn our music. Related? Certainly. Same thing... nope. There is a large monthly get-together not far from me. They met with their mostly-guitars in various homes on a rotating basis. They all have a copy of a book called Rise Up Singing. I'm not familiar with it. But it sounds like a collection of lead lines for pop folk songs with chord indications. Could be something else. Doesn't matter. Someone will say, let's do page 42. And more or less everyone opens to the page and sings, strums or picks their way through the tune in some random uncritical way. Maybe someone doesn't know the chords in the tune so he'll play it in chords he does know. Maybe someone will stop to comment on something or other. Eventually they run through the song, not all at the ssame time. And after a while do another. And another. And have a fine social time doing all this. So I'm told. Two different people who each went once... years apart... told me of this group. They weren't inviting me, they were warning me. I'm afraid I would not be good company for an afternoon like this. ------- With my current musical adventure ongoing (the contra-dance orchestra), I've notived my notation reading improving. Good. I needed the stimulation. I can now pick up a melody line of a piece I'm not familiar with and pick out the tune (slowly) on the first instrument I come to. That could be the mostly untouch piano in my dining room, the guitar next to it. Or the banjo sitting on the computer table. Or the... Tablature would restrict me to the instrument and the tuning it was written in.
____________________ My MP3 Section: http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1143/ My Myspace area: http://myspace.com/philj200 |
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| Posted: Thu Feb 1st, 2007 03:00 pm |
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14th Post |
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VintageFL Approved
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We meet weekly. There's an assortment of acoustic instruments. Guitars, mandolins, violins, basses, ukuleles. Sometimes someone brings a portable keyboard. It's at a different place each week. Usually about 20 people show up. The style is round robin. Someone in the circle starts off a song and everyone else who wants to joins in. Sometimes everyone joins in, sometimes only part of the group does, the rest listen. Sometimes a person solos if the song merits...I just love it when people do that to songs I bring to the table. Few people get out sheet music, but sometimes the song leader might if he or she is still trying to get the song down 100%. Sometimes it becomes a jam with multiple breaks and folks playing lead. After the song is over, the next person in the circle can start a song or pass. Anyone who wants to talk or smoke goes outside to do so. The group is very courteous and respectful of each other. I think it attracts a self-selecting bunch who can play this way and who like to. Most are intermediate and advanced players, some play professionally, several are music teachers. I'm only bringing this up, Phil, because you said that learning songs from chord and lyric sheets was only a private way to play and learn and that it was a flawed method if you were going to be playing with other people. I'm showing you a concrete example of why that's not necessarily true for everyone, and why those flaws you brought up aren't written in stone for anyone with a memory and a sense of rhythm. I think participating in this group has done a lot for me. It's made me a better player. It's challenged me to come up with new material more often. It also has helped me get over a little fear I had of playing and singing in front of others (I had not played guitar in years, so it felt new to do this again), and the social aspect can't be denied. I now know people from all over the county that I can jam with. One even offered me the opportunity to come and play with him onstage at a performance not long ago. So back to the original point about notation and tabs, I really do think that to grow in the musical direction I wanted to, I'd have to know how to do both, but not to rely on either. I think ear training is also critically important, no matter which method, tab or standard notation, one chooses to pursue. Last edited on Thu Feb 1st, 2007 03:12 pm by VintageFL |
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| Posted: Thu Feb 1st, 2007 03:46 pm |
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15th Post |
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Will Approved 
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1four5 wrote: I never learned to read music, and don't have the patience to even look at TAB. I'd rather just pick up my instrument and play it. Lyric sheets with chords penciled in where needed is the closest I've ever come to music on paper. I'm in the same situation as Dean. I play all music, on a variety of instruments, by ear. Because I learn most music through listening to recordings, I even memorize what key the recorded song is in. The biggest challenge for me is to try to play an unfamiliar song at a jam - I call it "guesswork on the fly."
____________________ Will http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/297/ Loose Change & Friends http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/245/ http://loosechangeandfriends.com The Earth Tones http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/337/ A Bunch Of Coconuts http://abunchofcoconuts.com |
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| Posted: Thu Feb 1st, 2007 03:51 pm |
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16th Post |
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Philj200 Approved
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"I'm only bringing this up, Phil, because you said that learning songs from chord and lyric sheets was only a private way to play and learn and that it was a flawed method" --Then I apologise. I sometimes write a lot stronger than I feel. And of course, any value judgement I put on anything is only my opinions. While I prefer anything I say to to be a universal truth, I've learned that it is most often not. So here's I pinch of salt to keep handy. I have also often said that playing with other musicians is the best part of music. Any music. Folk, Jazz, Classical, Drummers Circle, Gospel on Sunday morning. I just like to be as well prepared as possible. Your weekly get-together is something I envy. There is nothing close to that near me. I've tried to organize something like via our friends at Folk-Jam but after many months only two people lifted their hands. I was disappointed. -- Related sidebar: Many years ago a sheet metal workers local had their headquarters just off Madison Square in Manhattan. They graciously allowed a Saturday/Sunday hoot in their main hall. It was sweet! It started at midnight. No one got in a second before. At midnight, the watchman would open the doors and we would troop up four or five flights of stairs (the elevators were turned off for some reason I never learned). At the door, you had to pay $5 or promise to perform/lead at least one song. Those who committed themselves to this got to sit in a large circle of chairs in the middle of the hall. Everyone had to make do around them. But we had some very heavy hitters sitting in those chairs: People like John Herald, Billy Faire, Eric Weisberg and many others of that generation of phenomenal people. And it was a tough crowd. Don't sit there and strum Kum-ba-ya and expect an ovation. The music would last for hours. We would stumble out sometimes when the sun had already risen. If the time of year was right, we would leave the union hall, go find some breakfast, maybe a nap, then down to Washington Square Park (15 blocks south) where the music would start at noon ... and do it all again. Sadly, the building was destroyed in the famous Madison Square fire which until 9/11 was the worst disater for the NYFD in the 20th century. But the fire was several decades later. Last edited on Thu Feb 1st, 2007 03:54 pm by Philj200 ____________________ My MP3 Section: http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1143/ My Myspace area: http://myspace.com/philj200 |
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| Posted: Thu Feb 1st, 2007 04:08 pm |
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17th Post |
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Will Approved
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VintageFL wrote: We meet weekly. There's an assortment of acoustic instruments. Guitars, mandolins, violins, basses, ukuleles. Sometimes someone brings a portable keyboard. It's at a different place each week. Usually about 20 people show up. I play in several local jam groups, some that use a similar song circle format, but for other jams, the format is somewhat different. At the local Grayslake (IL) folk jam, it's housed in a large church, whose owners have agreed to let the jammers use it every 2nd and 4th Friday evening of the month. The church is large enough to house many separate jams, because of the diversity of music that is played (any kind of acoustic instrument and musical style is okay, as long as it's not amplified). The bluegrass players have their own circle(s), the folkies have their own song circle(s), and any number of ad hoc jams can be held in separate small rooms. Bluegrass players, as far as I can tell, never use written music, nor tabs. The folkies generally bring chord-lyric sheets, but often a song will proceed without using any, and other players generally follow along with the song leader's interpretation. I have my own set of notebooks, but most of them are for lyrics, as most of them don't have the chords written down. I learn a lot of new songs at these jams, playing and accompanying some songs for the very first time. For me, it's just applying pattern recognition to guess what the next chord will be by listening to the melody. The local old-timey jams, however, have a more rigid format. The fiddlers run the jam and select the tunes (strictly old timey) to be played - NO sheet music or tabs are provided, so if you are not an ear player, it's not likely to be much fun. Other instruments usually include banjo, mandolin, guitar, and string bass. At old timey jams, I play mostly guitar, sometimes autoharp (if there aren't a lot of other loud instruments), and rarely, the tenor banjo. Also, the key signature remains fixed until the jam leader decides to do so. So, that may mean several hours of playing in the key of D, then G, then A, etc. Last edited on Thu Feb 1st, 2007 04:11 pm by Will ____________________ Will http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/297/ Loose Change & Friends http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/245/ http://loosechangeandfriends.com The Earth Tones http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/337/ A Bunch Of Coconuts http://abunchofcoconuts.com |
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| Posted: Thu Feb 1st, 2007 04:21 pm |
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18th Post |
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Philj200 Approved
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"Bluegrass players, as far as I can tell, never use written music, nor tabs. " -- How can you tell bluegrasss tunes apart? By their names. (Just repeated in passing, I play a bit of GB.) I don't know what's wrongs with the local music scene. Maybe too much rock and roll? There are plenty of pickers around, but getting them to commit to a regular jam is like asking them to contribute parts of their body to an organ bank before they die (visions of Monty Python here.). Last edited on Thu Feb 1st, 2007 04:25 pm by Philj200 ____________________ My MP3 Section: http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1143/ My Myspace area: http://myspace.com/philj200 |
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| Posted: Thu Feb 1st, 2007 04:38 pm |
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19th Post |
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VintageFL Approved
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There's a bluegrass jam here every Monday night out at the beach pavilion, and it attracts quite a crowd. A few months ago I stumbled over there like a naive little puppy with my koa National uke and asked if I could join in. The group seemed very cold and distant, nobody would look me in the eye. They kind of grunted an assent, but they sure were looking at my uke funny. I noticed that when they played, they formed a circle and would sort of work to back people out who showed up whom they didn't like. It was weird. One guy tried to back me out at one point, which I only realized in retrospect later when I learned that this is what they do. Of course I was oblivious to any of this then, and just kept playing along by ear, and having a blast. At one point, one of the two mandolin players turned around and said, "Man, that thing sounds great!" and then someone else made a comment about my Dobro getting shrunk in the wash, and they all laughed. From that point, I was allowed "in." I later found out that this group is known for being incredibly snobby and picky about "guarding their sound" and don't take very well to outsiders just showing up. I'm glad I didn't know that on the first night I just went in, wagging my tail like a little golden retriever. I played with them about four times. I stopped going because I felt that the next time I showed up, I really should be able to start a song and sing instead of just playing backup chords, and I wasn't that familiar with bluegrass standards to do that. I thought about getting myself up to speed on a few traditional songs but decided I'd rather focus on the stuff I like to play better, which is the old blues/jazz tunes from the 20s-present time. I did enjoy it though, and at some point I'd love to learn a couple of bluegrass songs and go back. The group leader suggested "My Blue Ridge Mountain Home" as a good one for me to try. I know we've strayed off topic a bit but I really do enjoy hearing about how these jams work. I do think it's all interrelated, because if you're going to play with other people it helps to know, I think, how to approach a piece of music in the most productive way for achieving that musical synergy. Last edited on Thu Feb 1st, 2007 04:48 pm by VintageFL |
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| Posted: Thu Feb 1st, 2007 05:04 pm |
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20th Post |
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Philj200 Approved
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Maybe we strayed a bit. Or said as much as necessary about notation/tablature. Hey, we all will and should use what works for us. Even if it doesn't work for the guy standing next to you. And that's okay. I've seen very inward facing BGers. Didn't appreciate their attitudes much. Like if you don't have state-of-the art Mastertones and Dreadnoughts you're a child of a lesser god. Usually I take it as a sign of their musical insecurity. But I've also seen OTs that way. Every September, the Brooklyn Ethical Culture Society runs a BG/OT weekend event. If you are anywhere in the region please do yourself a favor and try to attend. It's a grand time. But there was one self-sanctified group of keepers of the flame (maybe five or six) of OTer's who staked out a really good spot early in the day (they must have been there before). These coots seemed to know each other. But litereally barked at anyone trying to join them. Their look-down-the-nose, you-are-not-worthy attitude reminded me of bishops being visited by members of an apostate church. Was not my old Joe Clark as fine a man as theirs? So I joined stood in with an ecletic BG group, a big, loud ecletic group. Two mandolins, me on banjo (the frankenbanjo LN), a really great singer on an even better 1959 D-28, a dobro and several comers and goers... right next to them. Seems I wasn't the only one they cold-shouldered. TFB. We did a version of Old Home Place that must have lasted 15 minutes. Everyone had contributed. And it felt good! Last edited on Thu Feb 1st, 2007 05:11 pm by Philj200 ____________________ My MP3 Section: http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1143/ My Myspace area: http://myspace.com/philj200 |
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