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ezFolk Forums > General > Instrument Repair and Luthiery > Saddle lowering for the not-faint-at-heart |
| Moderated by: Tony Provencher, Richard Hefner |
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| Saddle lowering for the not-faint-at-heart | Rate Topic |
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| Posted: Mon Nov 2nd, 2009 01:30 pm |
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1st Post |
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Philj200 Approved 
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At a jam the other day, a friend brought a terrible Ovation guitar. Whoever let this one out of the factory needed some serious talking to. The saddle was so high that is was actually possible to play dobro style. Past the third fret it was impossible to fret. I fixed it with the following methods... but don't try it unless you trust your skills, your tools and realize that a saddle is not the end of the world expensive to replace if everything goes sideways. Tools: mallet (not a hammer), smooth faced pliers (or two), small thin block of wood, soft lead pencil, small nail, bench grinder with a fine disc, belt-sander with a fine belt. Courage, about three pints. Removed saddle. (Do I have to say, get the strings out of the way?) Using the block of wood, I tapped on the end of the saddle to loosen it. Grasped it with the smooth pliers, used the thin nail as a lever... out it came. Drew an even line across the saddle with the pencil. And ground the saddle base to within a hair of the pencil line. I assume you have a steady hand. You will have to grind from both sides of the saddle and frequently check to make sure the bottom of the saddle is flat. Do I have to say ALWAYS GRIND FROM THE BOTTOM! I have a bench dog that lets me place a 3" belt sander upside down in a pretty-much unmoving position (the sander itself, not the belt). With that set up, I finished the saddle on the sander, holding it with the smooth pliers. Actually, I said that to protect your fingers, I held it in my hand. My friend witnessed this whole operation in white-faced silence. But the saddle was lowered, successfully too. Action improved 453%. Color came back to friends face. My finger count remained constant.
____________________ My MP3 Section: http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1143/ My Myspace area: http://myspace.com/philj200 |
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| Posted: Mon Nov 2nd, 2009 03:32 pm |
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2nd Post |
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Charlie Approved 
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Great job Phil, Yes it can be a trick unless you have the tools to do it, You explained it good. Sounds like you had to take alot off of it, I have done it by sanding on a flat surfice if you don't have a lot to take off. Great job Charlie
____________________ Yesterdays Tomorrow is Today http://www.ezfolk.com/audio/charlesculbertson |
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| Posted: Mon Nov 2nd, 2009 06:00 pm |
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3rd Post |
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Philj200 Approved
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Thanks Charlie. I had to take upwards of a quarter inch. That's not fine tuning, that's chain-saw surgery. Now for the kicker, I was emboldened to tackle the saddle on one of my eBay refugee guitars. Action was barely acceptable. So I took the saddle off, much as I did in the above post. But found that I didn't have to take much off. Odd, the action was bad. But I took some material off and reassembled the critter. Fans of NCIS will recognize my DeNozo moment as I slapped the back of my head. I had fixed the wrong guitar! I lowered the action on my perfectly acceptable Martin DXM. Whoops, but no harm, if anything the Martin now plays a bit better. I then did the saddle on the guitar that needed it. Noticed something interesting, none of the instruments had bone saddles. Plastic will tend to shred as you mill it. Bone will pulverize and give off a nasty dentist's office odor, the kind you smell when you're having a cavity drilled out.
____________________ My MP3 Section: http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1143/ My Myspace area: http://myspace.com/philj200 |
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| Posted: Mon Nov 2nd, 2009 08:11 pm |
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4th Post |
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theBlackman Approved 
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I've done this operation many times myself. I usually scribe a line across the bridge before I remove it. On bone a sharp thin blade, such as an exacto knife will scribe a line where the saddle meets the bridge mount. And then I put some india ink in the line. I then have a guide for the current depth of the saddle seat. Then I can measure or guesstimate from the bottom to the scribed line the amount I need to remove. I use a medium coarse file (mill file or such) and slowly file the saddle down. Place the file on a flat surface, and work the saddle on the file, not the file to the saddle. Works well for both bone and the many plastics now in use. Needless to say, but I will anyway  , you need to keep the saddle perfectly parallel to the surface of the file. If, as happens, you over cut the depth, toilet paper works great as shims to recover from the error. Works well also in adjusting nut depth. For nuts I use welding nozzle files. The various sizes are great for tuning nut grooves. The toilet paper in dual sheets is my preferrence as I can adjust the seat by micros to get the correct hieght. For extremes such as mentioned (1/4 inch) I use a grinding wheel to get most off then fine tune with my flat mill file. PS: I forgot to mention that on the nut I use powdered graphite to lube the slots and strings. That relieves the hangup that you often get on tuning a string. You all know that "twang" when a string goes flat when it snaps loose where it hung on the nut. Last edited on Mon Nov 2nd, 2009 08:16 pm by theBlackman ____________________ Let each day start as a blank page for life to write upon. http://ezfolk.com/audio/dusty http://cdbaby.com/all/theblackman http://youtube.com/DustinFLeer |
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| Posted: Mon Nov 2nd, 2009 08:13 pm |
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5th Post |
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Charlie Approved
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Phil thats funny as long as every thing work out, We do some strange things when we work on things, I have this great little mandolin that has been needing the bow in the neck taken out and instead of researching on it before hand, It had a upward bow and I reason that if I made the rod longer that it would pull the neck back down. So I turned it to the left a quarter turn and put it back and it was bad then, So I google it and reserched that I had gone wrong, So went back and turned it back where it was and then a quarter clock wise and bingo. I learn from my mistakes Charlie
____________________ Yesterdays Tomorrow is Today http://www.ezfolk.com/audio/charlesculbertson |
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| Posted: Mon Nov 2nd, 2009 09:12 pm |
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6th Post |
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J M Fenton Approved 
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Toilet paper!? I can only suppose that you must use that horrible old-fashioned, shiny, scratchy stuff that my granny used to insist upon (for use in the outside toilet).  I didn't realize that anybody made that anymore (or used it). John
____________________ John http://c1.ezfolk.com/J_M_Fenton/albums.php |
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| Posted: Mon Nov 2nd, 2009 11:39 pm |
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7th Post |
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Philj200 Approved
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I would rather make a shim out of a gossamer sliver of hardwood. Obviously, it would be thicker, but what the hell, double toilet paper means your mistake isn't so bad. My mistakes... that's a shim of a different thickness. Paper will diffuse the vibrations from the saddle to the sound box, even under pressure. At least to some degree. Wood would transmit vibrations more directly, wouldn't it. When I purchased the guitar that needed attention, it had paper shims under the saddle that made the action ridiculously high. And for no reason I could gather. The instrument sounded like it was stuffed with oatmeal. The tone without the paper shim was acceptable... and the action was still too high. Now it is okay. Scribing a line before you remove the saddle is a prudent idea. Just remember not to grind to the scribe line. If you do, then the saddle will be as high as the bridge! Not a good idea. I prefer to scribe a line to mark the amount of material to remove. Last edited on Mon Nov 2nd, 2009 11:40 pm by Philj200 ____________________ My MP3 Section: http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1143/ My Myspace area: http://myspace.com/philj200 |
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| Posted: Tue Nov 3rd, 2009 02:37 am |
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8th Post |
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theBlackman Approved
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I use the TP SPLIT and only one layer at a time. The thinness allows micro adjustment one layer at a time. If the adjustment under the saddle is more than two or three, I use a wood shim also. The TP works best as a adjuster at the nut, or if the string slot in the saddle is too deep. Not under the saddle.  Measurements for removal are always from the bottom. The scribed line helps me keep the filing perfectly straight and true. It is easy to see if the trimming is slanted toward one end of the saddle or the other. The eye can pickup micro differences in the angle easily. If it starts to take more off the "left" than the "right" it is instantly apparent, at least for me. Last edited on Tue Nov 3rd, 2009 02:42 am by theBlackman ____________________ Let each day start as a blank page for life to write upon. http://ezfolk.com/audio/dusty http://cdbaby.com/all/theblackman http://youtube.com/DustinFLeer |
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| Posted: Tue Nov 3rd, 2009 11:51 am |
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9th Post |
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Philj200 Approved
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Let us consider the number of guitar picking angels dancing under a saddle... A one or two ply of TP (as we called it when I was a Boy Scout back when Ike smiled on us all) is very thin. Under the pressure of a saddle, bridge and tuned strings, it will compress the TP even more. Okay, paper is a form of wood, so under that compression I'll stipulate that toilet paper will be dense enough to transmit sound cleanly but the real issue is string height, action. So playing back to high school geometry (the only math I was ever good at), the difference in action between a saddle with toilet paper and without around the fifth fret will be discernible to either a yegg (love that word), a young bat or an extremely gifted ear. I am or have none of the above. I wonder if the difference in action w/wo TP is real at all. But leaping the fence: TP will do something better than a wooden shim. It will compress in direct proportion to the pressure placed on it. So it will tend to fill in and level unevenness. Leaping back across the fence: of course, then the uneven compression will then mean that some strings will be transmitting sound via denser material than others, which will annoy the bluegrass loving bat mentioned previously. Better to remove the right amount of material the first time. Scribed lines are a guide of course. I usually remember to draw them half way through the process. I trust my eye (no reference to the bat intended). As for John's granny's anti-saddle toilet paper; we come to one of the great divides between Europe and the US. European TP is a challenge... both to use and to find. In the US, we value the sensitivities of our behinds so much that we cushion them even as we clean them. Powdered graphite is very good advice both for the saddle and in my experience, the nut as well, if not even more so. How many of us stock graphite, powdered or otherwise... d'uh, we all do. Pencils! The softer the better. It is worth the expense of buying a good quality 2 or 4B artist's pencil and keep it with you bag of musical tricks. Just rub the point into the slots on the nut and at the places on the saddle where the strings pass over. The pencils will last for years. You might even consider cutting the pencil in two. Leave one half at home, take the other half with you in the place where you keep spare strings. Every time you change a string, a quick rub with the pencil will lubricate saddle and nut and save you a lot of broken strings will speeding tuning. (Written with a wink in obvious places) Last edited on Tue Nov 3rd, 2009 01:03 pm by Philj200 ____________________ My MP3 Section: http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1143/ My Myspace area: http://myspace.com/philj200 |
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| Posted: Tue Nov 3rd, 2009 06:21 pm |
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10th Post |
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theBlackman Approved
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Philj200 Well said.  (nudge nudge, wink wink) Last edited on Tue Nov 3rd, 2009 06:22 pm by theBlackman ____________________ Let each day start as a blank page for life to write upon. http://ezfolk.com/audio/dusty http://cdbaby.com/all/theblackman http://youtube.com/DustinFLeer |
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| Posted: Wed Nov 4th, 2009 02:32 pm |
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11th Post |
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Philj200 Approved
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Aw shucks.
____________________ My MP3 Section: http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1143/ My Myspace area: http://myspace.com/philj200 |
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