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| Moderated by: Tony Provencher, Richard Hefner |
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| Banjo vellum skin replacement | Rate Topic |
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| Posted: Sat Mar 14th, 2009 08:27 pm |
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1st Post |
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Chrissak09 Approved 
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Hello, another problem im afraid you guys might be able to help me with!! Im putting a new Goat vellum skin on my Banjo uke. I have taken the uke apart and removed the old skin off the flesh ring. The thing is, when i fitted the skn and lapped it around the ring, This itself fits snugly around the pot and will go down about 1/4 inch. The depth of the pot is a little over 1/2 inch deep and is taperd slightly. The problem is the Bezel or (Tension ring?) is a slightly larger diameter than the flesh ring so it doesent line up properly with it no matter how for the ring is down the pot. Therefore the skin is not tensioning evenly. Is it that i am doing something wrong? should the flesh ring sit snug on the pot and match that size or should it be loose and match the size of the Bezel? Sought of ''floating around the pot''... Should i make a new ring from a much thicker piece of brass? Sorry if a bit confusing  .. Cheers, Chris
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| Posted: Sun Mar 15th, 2009 03:41 pm |
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2nd Post |
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sano Approved 
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I think I got you clearly, and I think you were doing things right, but you may have to redo it, which is not difficult or unusual the first time round. But to be sure, you should have the skin wrapped around the flesh ring with the excess sticking up higher than the face of the skin, and at this point, untrimmed. That's how it should be. The skin should still be very damp and pliable at this point (but not dripping wet), including the excess, which you will cut off later (actually it's the last step). At this point, your flesh ring will be sitting approx. 1/4" from the top rim. Then, with the excess which should be evenly gathered, slip on the outer ring gently and evenly, just applying enough pressure so that it fixes its shape around the skin wrapped around the flesh ring, with what looks and feels like a good even fit. Do not apply too much pressure. You don't want to stretch too much when the skin is this damp. As the skin dries, flange out the excess. This will be cut off with strong sharp scissors when the skin is dry. I usually remove the outer ring and cut off the excess as low down as I can (while still keeping a good overlap bond) so that the cut is not visible in the end. As for the drying process, this is open to discussion, for sure. There are more exerienced members with different techniques, no doubt. I've experimented with this and have found best results if the skin doesn't dry too fast. I cover the top with a flat piece of board just to slow things down a bit. You don't want it drying too fast or too slowly, but that will depend on your humidity control. I like it to dry over the course of 12 hours, and in the winter, I put it in my sauna, which is warm and dry, not hot (definitely optional, and I'm not suggesting you stick it in an oven -- we don't need to cook it). Midway through the process, I torque down the outer ring a little, just so the skin is seated nicely and evenly. When it apppears dry, I leave it alone for a couple days. It requires patience and helps if you have another uke to play while waiting. Then I remove the outer ring, the skin itself, trim the excess, admire the nice bond around the flesh hoop, and make sure the wood rim of the pot is smooth and nicely finished. Then put it all back together. Torque slowly and evenly. Accept that this cannot be fully stretched and tuned at once. I again take a few days, slowly torquing a bit each day. I use a chopstick to tap out a nice bright pitch. Remember that you're essentially making a drum, and it has to be tuned properly. I like my skins tuned as brightly as possible, and this takes time. You don't want to rush and break the skin. I've done this now to about 6 banjoukes and a couple tenor banjos. I've even restretched some old skins that weren't done well the first time. I get better at it as I go along, but I'm not a seasoned expert. So if someone knows better than me, I don't mind being told I'm all wet. Edit: I should say that the whole process is up for discussion. A long while back I found a site on the internet that got me started, but I can't for the life of me remember if I'm doing it the same way or not. All I can say is that this way seems to work well for me  Cheers,Last edited on Sun Mar 15th, 2009 03:56 pm by sano ____________________ sano |
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| Posted: Sun Mar 15th, 2009 05:44 pm |
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3rd Post |
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Chrissak09 Approved
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Thank you sano! Very clear instruction. I think i went wrong when i trimmed to much of the excess skin away, and didnt leave it long enough to settle before i started to tension it. The skin parted from the ring at a couple of points and got a ripple. Another thing is, does it matter if the skin is Too tight? Like i was a bit paranoid of the bridge breaking through... Especially with the higher D tuning.
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| Posted: Sun Mar 15th, 2009 07:12 pm |
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4th Post |
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sano Approved
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I think it's possible to get the skin too tight (in effect, too thin) if it's overstretched when wet. Otherwise, it's hard to overtighten the skin. Usually a lug will squeak (just prior to being stripped -- caution!) before the skin gets that tight. I can't imagine a bridge puncturing it unless you've stretched it paper thin when it was wet. Even so it's unlikely. The problem with it being overstretched when wet is that it loses strength and may want to sag under string tension. But careful tuning should tighten it up anyway. The skin you've already trimmed may still be salvageable. Rewet it (soak in water a few minutes till it's more or less entirely transparent) and then try to stretch it flat with as much overlap as you can get around the hoop. Carefully place it on the pot and then carefully place the other ring over it. With some luck and care, you might be able to get a bit more overlap that way. It's a bit of a fussy business, and I've actually seen some pretty bad jobs done on some very old skins. I picked up a Broadcaster that had an old skin with a wrinkle and really messy folding over the flesh hoop. I wetted and redid it, and it looks like new. It's pretty amazing how the skins can last for a century or more. I don't think I've got it down perfectly yet. I've got a Keech that I restretched, and I'm not happy with the tone. It's just not as bright as I think it could be. But like everything, practice makes perfect. Good luck and let us know your result! edit: If you've done it successfully, the skin should appear tight when it is dry, before you begin to tighten it. Don't rely on tightening to remove wrinkles or sags. It'll never work unless your lugs have exceptionally long threads (and in which case, they'd likely be sticking out into your gut or ribs -- not a happy result) And btw, if you happen to make a small puncture in the skin in the process, it's likely fixable with a small dap of epoxy on the back of the dried skin. Old ukes are sometimes found with a skin puncture at the pot rim. These sorts of holes can be esily mended with epoxy. Even larger holes can be patched with skin and epoxy from the back, but the entire patch will be visible from the front when the skin is tightened, and this might not be desirable. I don't believe small punctures patched with dabs of epoxy will affect the sound. There are at least a dozen other factors that will adversely affect sound more, first and foremost being poor tuning and bad playing . But I'm not a person to advise on playing, for sure. Matthew J Richards and a fellow named John from Suffolk (goes by wittgrip) on Youtube are my mentors when it comes to learning the Formby strokes.Last edited on Sun Mar 15th, 2009 07:57 pm by sano ____________________ sano |
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| Posted: Sun Mar 15th, 2009 09:48 pm |
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5th Post |
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Chrissak09 Approved
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Thanks again sano. Some invaluable information again, very informative!! you guys really are a great help. im going to get the skin off and try and restrech it again, i think it will be ok because i dont think i really streched that much to begin with so hopefully it should give a bit. i also need to address a buzzing string, now theres somthing i overlooked... i guess the skin tension and hight on the pot would affect the playing hight of the strings.. ha! but then the bridge hight can also be sanded down slightly i guess (if it is too high) but then theres another topic! I also aggree, and think there is no 'right' way of doing things, Ive read many instructions on the net and they all differ in some way or another witch can be very confusing, especially for a beginner like myself. I always start to follow someone elses techneqe then i just end up using my initiative and do it my way... 95% of the time it turns out ok. That said, i still find tips from people such as yourself, sano very helpful, And of coarse we learn by our mistakes. each to there own! Sorry, i forgot to ask, is there a way to make a new flesh ring from brass? i think a thicker ring woulgd give more area for the tension hoop, as the old one is very thin..as i mentiond in my first post. Can this be done and is it a good idea? ill keep you posted and put up some pictures when it is finished. Thanks again oh and heres a recent picture of the uke in question: Chris Attachment: snapshot552.jpg (Downloaded 22 times) Last edited on Sun Mar 15th, 2009 10:05 pm by Chrissak09 |
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| Posted: Sun Mar 15th, 2009 11:46 pm |
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6th Post |
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sano Approved
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Oh, yes, I've seen that nice uke before on another thread, and it's similar in construction to the Keech, I believe. If so, there's an inner tone ring that's tightened after the outer lugs are tightened down as much as possible. If they're like the lugs on the Keech, they're weak at the hooked bend, so be careful. I broke a couple of those that had hairline cracks I hadn't noticed but fortunately had some spares. Your question about making a flesh ring's a good one. I suppose one could make a new ring with brass rod. Those flesh hoops are usually hollow rods and allow a piece of wire to be inserted at the ends to join them together. I don't know if that kind of rod's available. I can find various thicknesses of solid brass rod in the hardware store here, and I guess it could be braized together to make a ring. I've never done this and have been pondering the same thing myself. Getting it bent right and exactly the right size could be a bit challenging. Has anyone out there done this successfully? edit: I remember now, yes, that's a Jetel! Last edited on Mon Mar 16th, 2009 02:37 am by sano ____________________ sano |
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| Posted: Mon Mar 16th, 2009 12:14 am |
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7th Post |
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Chrissak09 Approved
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I dont think there is an inner tone ring (not sure what a tone ring is anyway!), if you look at the picture of the back in the other thread, you see the other screws? they actually hold the backplate and pot (whitch is in one piece) to the main cylinder body. As for the Flesh ring, the idea i had in mind was to source some solid brass rod from my local craft or hobby store. (its a bit tricky using hollow tube because if you try to bend or form it it will crease.. unless you can get hold of some sort of bender you insert into it? I would maybe try and form it around something - yes the tricky part!.. then i could join it using a short lenth of flexible plastic tube that fits over the rod using epoxy or superglue?? maybe.. Thats all i could think of myself but i too would sure be interested if anyone else has done this. Chris
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| Posted: Mon Mar 16th, 2009 03:43 am |
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8th Post |
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banjo brad Super Moderator 
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I think the joint would need to be soldered.
____________________ ezFolk Help Brad Prickly Pear Music Banjo Brad's ezFolk page TOTMC |
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