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ezFolk Forums > General > Instrument Repair and Luthiery > Anyone have a piece of mahogany to spare? |
| Moderated by: Richard Hefner | Page:   1 2 3   |
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| Anyone have a piece of mahogany to spare? - Instrument Repair and Luthiery - General - ezFolk Forums | |||||||||||||||
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Philj200 Approved 
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I do have a bandsaw. It is a light duty unit with a 1/4" blade. It would have been fine for ripping, but I wanted to cut the wood a second time to thin it to 1/8." The band saw would not be accurate enough. Or mine is not accurate enough. Running the rips section on each a second time worked. And I remembers to use a saw dog and a rip guide. Finger count remains consistant. THe wood is remarkably stiff. No play in it whatsoever. Will do the steam and bend tommorow. Thanks for all your support.
____________________ My MP3 Section: http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1143/ My Myspace area: http://myspace.com/philj200 |
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theBlackman Approved 
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Unless you use the full length of the piece I sent you you will have a hard time bending it to the curve you need. If the steam treated piece was a foot or two long you probably could bend it. That is why I suggested a ply backing (veneer) inside with the patch let in from the outside. The two pieces would form a Ply type of patch. But still the patch itself will be tough to form to shape. Fortunately, the curve looks very gentle, although it nears the full curve of the body to the right of your picture as shown. One thin you can do to ease the bending is to make grooves on the INSIDE of the piece. Use your Bandsaw and cut 1/16 deep grooves spaced about 3/16 all along the inside of the piece. This technique will let you curve the piece more easily. When you fit it put glue in the slots as you curve it into the hole. That will set and hold the curve when the glue dries. From the looks of it you will be working with a piece about 4 inches long. This short a piece of 3/16 solid mahogany will really be tough to bend more than a quarter inch or so off straight even steamed. The slot technique is commonly used to make curves in countertops and other such. You can find examples in woodworking books.
____________________ Let each day start as a blank page for life to write upon. http://ezfolk.com/audio/dusty http://cdbaby.com/all/theblackman |
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Philj200 Approved
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Unless you use the full length of the piece I sent you you will have a hard time bending it to the curve you need. --As I'm finding out. Fortunately, the curve looks very gentle, although it nears the full curve of the body to the right of your picture as shown. --Not the case. Compared to a straigth edge, it look like pie plate. One thin you can do to ease the bending is to make grooves on the INSIDE of the piece. Use your Bandsaw and cut 1/16 deep grooves spaced about 3/16 all along the inside of the piece. --I know this technique. But never used it it on guitars. I've put curves into wallboard this way. Still trying to bend with minimal cutting for now. May try this if necessary. I has to thin the wood even further. to bring it down to the orginals thinness. This technique will let you curve the piece more easily. When you fit it put glue in the slots as you curve it into the hole. That will set and hold the curve when the glue dries. --I understand. From the looks of it you will be working with a piece about 4 inches long. --Correct. (Again) More later.
____________________ My MP3 Section: http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1143/ My Myspace area: http://myspace.com/philj200 |
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Philj200 Approved
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A few minutes later: The patch is now drying in the bending jig. The jig itself is a simple piece of scrape wood with an arc mimicing the curve of the guitar at the distressed area. I put a slightly more acute fence of nails inside the acr to recieve the steamed patch. THe wood was still too resilient and the end broke off. But I allowed for that and made the patch longer than necessary. The broken end will become two of the cleats still to be made. I used another nail on the outside of the arc to secure the patch in place. It is now drying in the near 80oF sun. (Next to metal planter I'm refinishing, not far from the old leaky bucket containing cucumber seeds... if anyone is on Long Island and wants to take a look.)
____________________ My MP3 Section: http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1143/ My Myspace area: http://myspace.com/philj200 |
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theBlackman Approved
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Now that I take a closer look, I can see my estimate of the curve was in error. Looks to be about a 2 inch curve at the center of the arc. At first look it looked like it was more near the flatter portion of the body. But now I see it is right on the curve of the "hip". Good luck. I still think a rectangle will be awkward to work with. But if you have the patience and the skill, you could remove all the area between the top, and the bottom, clearing the banding, and glue to the inside banding. By that I mean the 1/2 square "banding" that runs along the inside top and the bottom outer edges to which the original sides are glued. Not the decorative ivory/plastic accent bands.
____________________ Let each day start as a blank page for life to write upon. http://ezfolk.com/audio/dusty http://cdbaby.com/all/theblackman |
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Philj200 Approved
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Now that I take a closer look, I can see my estimate of the curve was in error. Looks to be about a 2 inch curve at the center of the arc. --It is a pronounced curve. Not the most extreme, but a serious consideration. Makes me appreciate Bo Diddely's home-made square guitar. At first look it looked like it was more near the flatter portion of the body. But now I see it is right on the curve of the "hip". --That's about right. The wood patch is still drying. If the tailpiece was 180o and the a plum line dowm from the bridge would be zero, we're talking 45o. Good luck. I still think a rectangle will be awkward to work with. --Don't see it that way. The points on a diamond, divided by the curve are more of a challenge for me. But if you have the patience and the skill, you could remove all the area between the top, and the bottom, clearing the banding, and glue to the inside banding. --That's too big a job for the damage. The remaining finishing supplies arrived between earlier posts and this. I tested filler, clear and red nitrocellulose as well as medium brown mahogany stain. That last item comes in two ounce bottles is very strong. Getting ready to remove wood. By that I mean the 1/2 square "banding" that runs along the inside top and the bottom outer edges to which the original sides are glued. Not the decorative ivory/plastic accent bands. --Touching that is like a politician suggesting touching Social Security. No, I don't think I want to interfere with the side/top integrity. The damage is clear of any internal braces. The cleats will run an inch or more on either side of the hole. The paatch will have plenty of glue surface to adhere to. I think the job will be simpler once I get the damage cut out of the way., the cleats in place, tha pacth installed, the sanding staining and finsihing done. Yup, after that all I have to do is install the strap lock (three minute job) and tune her up. --- I just sharpened a chain saw. Neighbor came by and saw the chain saw and knew about the guitar project. He asked if I was loosing my patience.
____________________ My MP3 Section: http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1143/ My Myspace area: http://myspace.com/philj200 |
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Philj200 Approved
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Patch is ready. A little too thick. That's better than too thin. First setback though. The scratch that I thought was stable is not. It is a crack. And damned hard to get to. I've cut a hole te recieve the path and have slightly widened the crack, inserted glue and have a cleat clamped in place inside. Still have a fair bit of shaping on the hole. But it's coming along.
____________________ My MP3 Section: http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1143/ My Myspace area: http://myspace.com/philj200 |
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theBlackman Approved
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Sorry. Confusion reigns. Not remove and replace the banding.  Just peel the damaged wood off leaving the lip to reglue the patch to. And, I agree with your neighbor. A chainsaw does seem a little brutal for the work you want to do. 
____________________ Let each day start as a blank page for life to write upon. http://ezfolk.com/audio/dusty http://cdbaby.com/all/theblackman |
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Philj200 Approved
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That's sort of what I'm doing. Currently, I'm fine tuning the hole where the patch will go. First cleat is in to stabilize the most recenty discovered crack. Two or three more cleats and I'll install the patch. Oddly enough, the arc is too acute. Will flatten it a bit tomorrow. The nifty side clamp that was supposed to hold the patch while drying is too small. Will have to think of something else. Probably a belt clamp.
____________________ My MP3 Section: http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1143/ My Myspace area: http://myspace.com/philj200 |
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theBlackman Approved
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To ease the curve, just put a wet rag on the inside and let it soak for a while. The moisture absorbed will swell the fibers and "warp" it to the dry side. Like taking the curve out of planks that are cupped. They cup because the inside of the curve is cured drier than the outside. I used to just dampen the dry side and lay them out on the lawn with the curve down. It will straighten the "cup" out of most planks in just a hour or so.
____________________ Let each day start as a blank page for life to write upon. http://ezfolk.com/audio/dusty http://cdbaby.com/all/theblackman |
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Philj200 Approved
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I soaked the patch in warm water for a while and placed it in a clamp applying just enough pressure to ease the angle of arc. Seems to have worked. I have a second cleat drying on the crack. Once that is set I'll get back to shaping the hole. Getting the cleat into place was a problem. As I mentioned, I'm removing as little original wood as I can. That meast reaching the inside of the crack was a problem. I solved it by attaching a small wad of double sided tape to a small C-clamp. Then I attached cleat stock to the tape goo, then hide glue (yes I'm using hide glue) to the other side of the cleat. That I could get into the inside of the guitar and put into place. Hide glue... Yellow glue... Why did I decide on hide glue? Two reasons. One. I bought a bottle to experiemnt and it was on hand. I had two bottles of yellow glue. Titebond and Elmers. I never cared for Elmers. It's just not strong enough. Titebond has always worked well for me, but the bottle had been around for a while and Two: I didn't want yet another opened bottle of stuff clogging my already jammed work space. Last edited on Wed Jun 4th, 2008 09:40 pm by Philj200 ____________________ My MP3 Section: http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1143/ My Myspace area: http://myspace.com/philj200 |
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Philj200 Approved
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Progress Report. Slow going. The patch fits very well. Not perfectly. But well enough. Last cleat is drying. After that I fit the patch in place. Still thinking of clamping for that. The belt clamp might not work. Will dry fit before glueing. Before I use any mahogany filings and glue, I'll see how much assistance the leveling paste from StewMac gives. Luckily, its on the underside of the guitar and is not overly visible. I promise this guitar I won't mess it up. Luckily also, I can go back and edit out this sentence if I do. Close to finger crossing time.
____________________ My MP3 Section: http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1143/ My Myspace area: http://myspace.com/philj200 |
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theBlackman Approved
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If you do make an error, HOT VINEGAR SOAKS with wet rags will dissolve the HIDE glue and let you clean up and re-do the repair. That's why I prefer HIDE for things like this. It also does nearly no harm to surrounding woods or surfaces. For clamping think BICYCLE INNER TUBES for stretching around the body from top to bottom. Stretch rubber bands (inner tube) around the outside shape of the instrument. It will form to the curve where the patch is and give you good holding pressure. You might need one or two. Or ask your local tire shop if they have any dead truck tubes or large inner tubes. Cut them into rings (large bands) and if you need a long one, then just string them together like you make rubber band chains, until you get the needed length. Pad the patch area with a plastic shopping bag. That will keep the glue from sticking to your clamp, be it a rubber band, a cargo strap, bungie cord or whatever. Last edited on Wed Jun 4th, 2008 11:49 pm by theBlackman ____________________ Let each day start as a blank page for life to write upon. http://ezfolk.com/audio/dusty http://cdbaby.com/all/theblackman |
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Philj200 Approved
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Good to know. Before it dries, a damp rag works too. I'll be toing a lot of cleaning and buffing when this job is complete. Would you recommend an imported, aged Balsamic vinegar? (wink) Off to a Bo Diddely tribute. More anon.
____________________ My MP3 Section: http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1143/ My Myspace area: http://myspace.com/philj200 |
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Philj200 Approved
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Progress Report: The patch is in, dry and solid. Sanding comes next. Then filler. Then finish. Then we'll see. I had to use an outrageous clamping method. The belt clamp wouldn't work. Nothing I tried worked. Until I used a five foot long bar clamp. I hooked one end under the work table and the other end (with the clamp-bolt) on the patch with a block of wood to spread the pressure. Sounds as scary as it looked. Even tied a bongee cord around the Rube Goldbery setup for safety. But an hour later (or two and half innings), the patch was set. There are three cleats behind the long crack. There are three more (and larger) cleats under the patch. The cleats under the patch cover about 80% of the open area making it probably stronger than when it came out of Kalamazoo. Each cleat was put in separately and allowed dry hard and secure before moving on. One edge of the patch is about a 1/16th of an inch too high. That can be reduced. The rest fits satisfyingly flat. Toward the end of the patch making step, I just eyeballed the fit with a small sanding drum in a Dremel. And a lot of dry fitting. I did reduce the arc with hat water then a vise. It worked. Check out the pix ... Added later: The patch looks straight compared to the curve of the gutar. Optical illusion, it is as curved as the guitar. Eeriely so, in fact. I mixed mahogany dust with hide glue to fill in where necessary. Didn't need much. Going kayaking so this may be on hold until next week. Attachment: Patch in.jpg (Downloaded 13 times) Last edited on Thu Jun 5th, 2008 08:54 pm by Philj200 ____________________ My MP3 Section: http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1143/ My Myspace area: http://myspace.com/philj200 |
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theBlackman Approved
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Looks good. On your original photo the damage appeared to be much larger than the Patch you show. With the black outlines it looked as big as my white diamond. I apologize for mis-reading the damaged area. Your approach is obviously the more appropriate one. It looks like the patch is about 3/4 by 3" and not a 3 x 5 as I misread your first note about a "Piece of Mahogany". I made the connection with the size of wood requested to the size of the damage as being about the same. Sand the patch down to size and then add the filler and resand to finished surface. The filler will only set in the exposed pores. If you fill before you have the excess down to the finished size, you'll just have to do it over. So bring it to the finished size and then use the grain filler and then sand that to the finish you want. Then lightly dampen a cloth (or buy a tack rag) and wipe the fine dust off. You might then give it a quick wipe with some acetone to remove any grease left from your fingers or tools before you spray the finish.
____________________ Let each day start as a blank page for life to write upon. http://ezfolk.com/audio/dusty http://cdbaby.com/all/theblackman |
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Philj200 Approved
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The 3x5" spec I posted was to give me enough stock to mess up and still be able to go on. So I probably mislead you. I won't be able to get back to the guitar until Sunday evening, more like Monday. Working this weekend and going kayaking on Peconic Bay. While I do appreciate the wood (and the speed it arrived), I appreciate your wise advice much more. I will repay this with the next person who needs help that I can give. Footnote: At the weekly jam I attend (where the damage happened), we did a Bo Diddely Night, a lot of his songs. One of the guys there knowing my electric was down brought his spare guitar for me to play. A mid-70's mint Strat! He played his real Les Paul. Sweet action. But it didn't have the Gibson's soul. We've been playing in a vacant warehouse so sound level is not a problem. As soon as the people there realized they could pump it up, the acoustics stayed home and the electrics came out. I prefer the acoustic jams we had (in a different location) until April. Probably go back to them as soon as the warehouse is rented. At the acoustic jams I usually bring a banjo, a bag of harps and a guitar (or tenor banjo) ( or resonator guitar with a raised nut). None of these istruments suit the electric jams. Have a great weekend Dusty.
____________________ My MP3 Section: http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1143/ My Myspace area: http://myspace.com/philj200 |
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Philj200 Approved
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Progress Report: Patch is sanded fine. It feels as smooth to the touch as an undamaged (and finished) part of the guitar side. The mahogany filler is in. I followed directios and worked it in, waited the correct time, squegeed the excess off with a stiff rubber blade (the correct tool). It is now drying overnight. Isee what more filling or snading is necessary in the morning. then I'm into the multitude of finishing coats. --- Kayak trip was cancelled. Too hot. Near 100o F of high humidty and no wind. I chose discretion, lemonade and the shade.
____________________ My MP3 Section: http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1143/ My Myspace area: http://myspace.com/philj200 |
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Philj200 Approved
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Porgress Report: There are two really scary events in a repair such as this. Cutting into the old guitar is obviously one. Did that with a Dremel rotary saw blade. I actually did try to scribe the entire cut. Wouldn't happen. Did use an Xacto knife and jewelers' files to shape the hole. Uses a tiny drum sander (on the Dremel) to final shape the patch. The next scary part will begin today assuming the final sanding is complete. That will be applying the stain and finish. I have some dark mahogany stain that is so concentrated last week's experiment was still on my fingers days later. I will apply (after and during sanding) stain,red lacquer, clear lacquer. In as many very light passes as necessary. This may take days. --- Added several hours later:What happened today was the filler did not cover as much as I wished. I think I was too careful in putting it on. But it gave me a chance to use 600 grit wet/dry paper again and a follower coat of filler. This is drying overnight. Tomorrow, I plan to use the wet/dry paper in the wet mode again. And perhaps stain and see what happens then. Last edited on Tue Jun 10th, 2008 10:15 pm by Philj200 ____________________ My MP3 Section: http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1143/ My Myspace area: http://myspace.com/philj200 |
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