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| Wood Tones - Erhu - Other Instruments - ezFolk Forums | |||||||||||||||
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dsouthwood Approved 
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In the fall issue of "Wood and Steel," Taylor Guitars has published an in-depth look at how different woods affect the tone of guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/news/community/ws_fall_2008.pdf The article starts on page 17. True, they are talking about guitars, and they analyze hardwoods that are not typically used in erhu construction, but knowledge is knowledge. Some of the information might even pay off in bridge experimentation. There might also be reasons other than appearance to make an erhu out of some of those woods. Dennis Last edited on Tue Oct 7th, 2008 05:07 pm by dsouthwood ____________________ Music contains all of life. |
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AllenZ Approved 
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Very very educational article Dennis, a million thanks~! Now let's work on getting some of that endangered Brazilian Rosewood in the article to make into an Erhu..... LoL
____________________ To hell with circumstances. I create opportunities. "You're lucky Buddhism teaches freedom from desire, because I've got the desire to kick your ass!" - Richard Gere |
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Clyde Approved 
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Good article Dennis, Wood is most interesting when it comes to the Erhu for the walls of the erhu is so thick and sound never really gets a chance to vibrate the walls of the Erhu it merely bounces off it, and the harder the wood like Ebony a more resonator effect it has on the sound. I wonder though as to what Allenz said about making an Erhu but with thin sides and back I wonder just what effect it would be on the sound, and I wonder what effect would the snake skin based on the edge of the sound body would have on the vibration of tone going through the resonator sound box. When one picks on a string on a instrument like a guitar it does produce a much different sound then a bow dragging on a string. God Bless music units the world and is the common langauge that needs no traslation
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Shanghai Angels Approved
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That article is toooooooooooo long..so I didnt read it. BUt it'll be interesting to see and hear Erhus made out of woods that are used to make guitars.Rosewood is so common for erhu...wonder if alder wood (popular for Fender Strats) will make an Erhu sound cool??
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mrjackgreen Approved
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I've too long wondered about the construction of the erhu resonator. The body of violin family instruments are not only thin, they are also shaped in specific shapes (of cross-section) to facilitate the vibration and therefore tone. Has any erhu makers ever experimented with the thickness of the sides? I've read a lot of reports about the depth and dimensions of the resonator (length and width of the sides), but I'm not sure about the thickness or shape. Does anyone have any comments?
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Will Approved 
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The article on tone woods is indeed informative, but guitar tone is influenced primarily by the composition and design of the wooden top (spruce vs. cedar vs. mahogany), and secondarily by the wood used for the back and sides of the guitar body. The design of the erhu, with its snake skin resonating surface, is more akin to the banjo than a wood-topped instrument such as a violin or guitar. A banjo's wooden resonator shell and the pot are also rather thick, but the characteristics of the membrane (tension, elasticity, etc.) are more influential on its tone. For those reasons, the wood used for the sides and back of the erhu may not be as influential as for a wood-top instrument.
____________________ Will http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/297/ Loose Change & Friends http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/245/ http://loosechangeandfriends.com The Earth Tones http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/337/ A Bunch Of Coconuts http://abunchofcoconuts.com |
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mrjackgreen Approved
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It would be nice if someone could just try it out to be sure.
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davidmdahl Approved
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The trouble is that each erhu is going to sound different regardless of the wood. Every part of the erhu would need to be identical, and that is difficult to do, especially the snake skin. Not only is one snake skin going to be different from another, the tightness of the skin may vary, and the shape of the wood resonator that it is attached to may not be exactly the same. One set of strings can sound different from another set from the same manufactorer, and they each break in according to their own schedule. I do not claim that tests with different woods are not worth doing, but it will be a challenge to test objectively. Best wishes, David
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mrjackgreen Approved
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I just think it's going to be a project worth undertaking. Even though the main resonating surface of erhu is the python skin, the entire body does participate with resonation to some degree, as you can feel the neck vibrating with each stroke of the bow. I think if the side can participate with resonation, that would increase the amplitude of air vibrating, so perhaps the volume would increase, and the tambre would definitely be affected. I am just theorizing here; I have no background in acoustic physics. I agree that it would be fairly difficult to test this objectively, given the high variability of individual erhus. But I still think you can draw out patterns from well-designed experiments. Say, build 5-6 erhus with essentially the same specs: same wood, same grade of python skin, same brand of strings, same bridge.... the only variable is the thickness of the resonator wall. Once we have obtained an understanding of how that affects the voice, we can take the next step and test different shape of the wall (in cross-section). To test if the conclusion you drew was a fluke due to erhu's individuality or a generalizable concept, you repeat the experiment and see if you can replicate the results. Now repeat the experiment with different wood.... you get the idea. It's not difficult to design experiments to test a theory objectively; given large enough of number of subjects or trials ("n") and you will be able to draw a generalizable conclusion. That is how we draw conclusion from sociological or even medical studies (although in these types of studies the questions are frequently "either-or", but non-polarized conclusions can still be deduced by observation). The limiting factors of course are the cost in dollars and time, as well as in expertise. Realistically, what we need is probably an erhu maker with decent backing (say, by a solid manufacturer) to take up this project. Last edited on Thu Oct 9th, 2008 01:35 am by mrjackgreen |
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Clyde Approved
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Very well explained Will, and yes this would be a very worth while project I wonder if we can get Den to give it a go? We could get two different tones one coming from the snake skin and one from the wood resonator box seems far fetched but by theory it is possible. Like Will pointed out the main source of it's tone will come from snake skin and even the same maker with the same wood the tone still varies to some degree from one Erhu to another. God Bless music units the world and is the common language that needs no translation Last edited on Thu Oct 9th, 2008 03:35 am by Clyde |
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AllenZ Approved
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mrjackgreen wrote: I've too long wondered about the construction of the erhu resonator. The body of violin family instruments are not only thin, they are also shaped in specific shapes (of cross-section) to facilitate the vibration and therefore tone. Jack, I never seen the inside of the violin body, is what you're describing anything like this? Attachment: photo07.gif (Downloaded 63 times)
____________________ To hell with circumstances. I create opportunities. "You're lucky Buddhism teaches freedom from desire, because I've got the desire to kick your ass!" - Richard Gere |
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dsouthwood Approved
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It is true that the tone of a guitar depends more on the spruce top and less on the body. Years ago I read that someone had tested this by putting a high-quality spruce top on a guitar body made of Papier-mâché, and reportedly it had a good sound. When I lived in Chicago, I frequently walked past the violin shop of Fritz Reuter and Sons. As the days went by I could watch the process of violin making on display. They would make four violins at a time, and the pieces were on display in the window at each stage of crafting. The sides seemed to be paper thin, and were heated and bent to that scroll shape. The top and bottom were carved from thicker slabs of wood--spruce for the top and maple for the bottom. Their workbench was near the window, so I could watch their chisels carve that hard maple like it was Cheddar cheese. The top and bottom ended up in a very shallow bowl shape. This is a much more complex instrument than an erhu, and making a violin is still much more of an art than a science. A violin by Günther Reuter sells for $12,000; his cellos go for $20,000. This is not to say that an erhu is simple. My first erhu was made of sandalwood and cost in the $700 range, and turned out to be crap. The one my teacher recently brought back from China for me is ebony, in the same price range, and is the sweetest thing you ever heard. It would be interesting to see what the variables are in terms of the wood. Many communities have woodworkers who enjoy turning shapes on a lathe, and might enjoy participating in such a project. The projects I have in mind are to find a nice bit of bamboo and make an instrument with a wood top, and also to make one out of metal with a Dobro-style resonator inside. (That might be too much of a muchness, but the only way to find out is to try it.) Dennis
____________________ Music contains all of life. |
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KenK Approved
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dsouthwood wrote: It is true that the tone of a guitar depends more on the spruce top and less on the body. Years ago I read that someone had tested this by putting a high-quality spruce top on a guitar body made of Papier-mâché, and reportedly it had a good sound.Hi Dennis and everyone, I've heard that too. I think it was Torres who did that experiment sometime in the mid 1800's. He is credited w/ establishing the shape and construction of the guitar as we know it today. I'm primarily a guitarist and quite serious about it. For the last 5 or so years I've been mostly into nylon string acoustic guitars, where the wood and construction becomes a fine art, almost at a "mystic" level. I have a good friend who owns a guitar shop in Berkeley. He specializes in classical and flamenco guitars that he has made in Paracho, Mexico. He uses classic designs of famous makers (Fleta, Torres, Ramirez, Hauser, etc.) and experiments w/ variations on the design and the woods used. The great thing is I get to visit him and play all these guitars. Over time I've learned what to expect from various woods and designs, but the amazing thing is that no two guitars are alike- even w/ the same wood and designs. No doubt if other people were making them to the same specs, they would be even more different. Personally , I've only played on my own erhu, so I don't have any experience in this area, but I believe the wood must have quite a lot to do w/ the tone even though because of thickness it doesn't resonate much. When I bought my erhu, I asked the guy at the store to play them for me as I had no technique at all at that time. He played a couple inexpensive student models w/ plastic bodies- then a slighly more pricey student erhu made of wood. No comparison! Could be the snake skin was a better quality as well, but I do think the wood must have a lot to do w/ the tone and projection of this wonderful instrument. Just thought I'd add something to this subject because I do have some experience with the effects of different woods in guitar making. A very amazing science and art! KenK
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davidmdahl Approved
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KenK wrote: Personally , I've only played on my own erhu, so I don't have any experience in this area, but I believe the wood must have quite a lot to do w/ the tone even though because of thickness it doesn't resonate much. This seems to be the common opinion, but I have not heard a convincing reason for an important role for wood in the sound of an erhu. If wood so thick doesn't resonate much, then how does it affect the sound? From past experience, it is safe to say that everything on the erhu matters. The snake skin, bridge, bridge position, strings, qianjin, pad, wood, bow stick, bow hair, rosin, did I leave anything out? Oh, and probably the most significant part, the player. <g> I am also a flute player, and in the flute world there is a raging battle about the role of materials in a flute. The physics of the flute would seem to indicate a negligible role for the material that makes up a flute. Most flute players believe their ears and experience and hear big differences among flutes made of alloys of silver, gold, platinum, or various woods. The answer to this question could have a big impact on threatened species. Some of the favorite woods used for erhu are endangered, and in the near future, will probably not be available. It would be very useful to determine the critical qualities of small leaf sandalwood that make it apparently so suitable for the erhu, and find other non-threatened woods with similar qualities. Best wishes, David
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mrjackgreen Approved
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AllenZ wrote: mrjackgreen wrote:I've too long wondered about the construction of the erhu resonator. The body of violin family instruments are not only thin, they are also shaped in specific shapes (of cross-section) to facilitate the vibration and therefore tone. The shape that I am referring to is a process called hallowing, which is the shaping of the violin face and back to a specific graduated thickness in order to achieve a desired response. See the photo:  I can't help but wonder if the same is true with erhu. If that's not the case, then erhu can essentially be shaped as a can, and as long as the inside has the general contour of erhu for "sound focusing". There is a wealth of information online about violin construction; below is an interesting site that gave a very thorough overview: http://www.centrum.is/hansi/construction.html Do we have any erhu makers amongst us?
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mrjackgreen Approved
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davidmdahl wrote: The answer to this question could have a big impact on threatened species. Some of the favorite woods used for erhu are endangered, and in the near future, will probably not be available. It would be very useful to determine the critical qualities of small leaf sandalwood that make it apparently so suitable for the erhu, and find other non-threatened woods with similar qualities. I agree. By the same token, what about construction using synthetic materials? I know there are some development in the artificial python skin area, but I don't think I've heard about anyone exploring using synthetic materials to make erhu (not the cheap plastic student erhu). There is a manufacturer making carbon fiber constructed cello and violins that have received excellent reviews. That's another direction for experiment.  Louis and Clark carbon fiber instruments: http://www.luisandclark.com/theinstruments.php Erhu with man-made python skin: http://www.eason.com.sg/products/erhu/heh31.jsp Last edited on Thu Oct 9th, 2008 07:15 pm by mrjackgreen |
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dsouthwood Approved
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The carbon fiber instruments have a great sound. With wood and snakeskin, there is a built-in element of chance in erhu manufacture, but with synthetic materials, every aspect of the process would be controllable and testable. This might indeed be the path to the ultimate erhu sound. Maybe even strings made of carbon nanotubes that will last forever. Dennis
____________________ Music contains all of life. |
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KenK Approved
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David said: "...I have not heard a convincing reason for an important role for wood in the sound of an erhu. If wood so thick doesn't resonate much, then how does it affect the sound?" I only have experience on my own erhu, so I'm just guessing and drawing comparisons from what I know about other instruments (the guitar). The thing is, the wood does seem to matter on electric guitars. Although the wood on the body is thick and doesn't resonate, you can feel the vibrations, and the sound must be affected by the wood. And: "From past experience, it is safe to say that everything on the erhu matters. The snake skin, bridge, bridge position, strings, qianjin, pad, wood, bow stick, bow hair, rosin, did I leave anything out? Oh, and probably the most significant part, the player." I've personally experimented w/ moving the damper and folding it a couple ways. Certainly I can see that the bridge material and shape would make a huge difference as well as the quality of the bow. I've also moved my qianjin as close to the peg stock as possible. (I noticed that's how Xu Ke has his.) My idea here was to make the scale longer and I like it that way. But the big surprise from moving it was that the erhu is much louder. I didn't expect that. Now your statement has me wondering if the qianjin material or amount of windings would affect the tone? Any thoughts on that David? KenK
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mrjackgreen Approved
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Now your statement has me wondering if the qianjin material or amount of windings would affect the tone? I think I've read that the qianjin can influence the "hardness/crispness" of the tambre. Compare to the traditional string qianjin, the new mechanical qianjin tend to have a brighter and more crisp sound, more of a northern/Beijin sound.
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Clyde Approved
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Just a small note here concerning carbon fiber Violins and guitars I have seen some as old as 25 years old and I can tell you that wood will increase in it's tone qualities but plastics and fiber carbon will start to decline in there tone quality as soon as they have been manufactured. God Bless Music units the world and is the common language that needs no translation
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| ezFolk Forums > Other Instruments > Erhu > Wood Tones | |
