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ezFolk Forums > Other Instruments > Erhu > Issues on CITES...A punishable offence under the WAPPRIITA?! |
| Moderated by: Tony Provencher, Richard Hefner | Page:   1 2 3   |
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| Issues on CITES...A punishable offence under the WAPPRIITA?! | Rate Topic |
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| Posted: Thu Oct 25th, 2007 08:44 pm |
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21st Post |
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Bayun Approved 
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To ease up the rather tense atmosphere toward the end of this thread, I enclose a cute picture here. Not about CITES, but it is to CHEER you ALL UP  .Attachment: huisun-and-nanyen.jpg (Downloaded 118 times)
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| Posted: Fri Oct 26th, 2007 04:22 pm |
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22nd Post |
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thunderbird Approved 
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Bayun wrote:To ease up the rather tense atmosphere toward the end of this thread, I enclose a cute picture here. Not about CITES, but it is to CHEER you ALL UP Definitely these two oriental beauties brighten the forum considerably...especially they are also Erhu players...I like your picture and appreciate your kind intention! 
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| Posted: Fri Oct 26th, 2007 09:01 pm |
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23rd Post |
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Clyde Approved 
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God Bless Last edited on Thu Jul 10th, 2008 07:47 am by Clyde |
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| Posted: Sat Nov 17th, 2007 09:10 am |
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24th Post |
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mikebgn Approved
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Hi Thunderbird and others, I'm also from Canada (Toronto) and may be asking my inlaws to buy an Erhu from Singapore with CITES cert and bringing it to Toronto when they visit here for Christmas. Would you know or have you heard of any other snags they may run into from canada customs? The CITES is all that is needed, right? Will they give my inlaws trouble for other reasons or want something else besides CITES? Also, as all of us in Canada know, the government loves to tax us to death; any idea how much tax, duties etc. my inlaws may get slapped with at customs for bringing in a concert grade erhu? thanks alot Mike Last edited on Sat Nov 17th, 2007 09:40 am by mikebgn |
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| Posted: Sun Nov 18th, 2007 02:44 am |
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25th Post |
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thunderbird Approved
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mikebgn wrote:Hi Thunderbird and others, If you bring in an Erhu without the CITES...very likely the Canadian customs would seize it...I am not sure if customs would treat your inlaws differently if they are Canadian citizens or tourists (regarding taxes)...I have no experience asking people to bring in anything to this country for me...so maybe other forum members are in a better position to answer your questions! My friend recently returned home (Canada) with a Master's Erhu bought from China...she didn't have any problem with the customs...in fact the only problem that she experienced was from the airline staff...they tried to convince her not to take the Erhu onboard with her...because that Erhu would be counted as one single piece of carry-on lugage...naturally she didn't want to part with her beloved Erhu...so she insisted to keep the Erhu...would you want to leave the Erhu with the rest of the luggages to be stored away and out of your sight?! No way!
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| Posted: Sun Nov 18th, 2007 06:08 am |
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26th Post |
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mikebgn Approved
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Well, it's reassuring to know she didn't get hassled. We have heard of one person years ago where canada customs punched a hole and ripped the snake skin on the erhu and then handed them back the erhu. Ouch - that would bring tears to my eyes. At least they got to keep 50% of the erhu and maybe try to find a snake somewhere around here :-) I don't know what customs does nowadays...
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| Posted: Sun Nov 18th, 2007 10:32 pm |
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27th Post |
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thunderbird Approved
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mikebgn wrote:Well, it's reassuring to know she didn't get hassled. Mike, Please note that I am using the term "you" in a very loose sense...the term "you" does not refer in particular to you ! If it is your first offence...they put your "illegal" Erhu (Erhu without CITES permit) in "jail" (storage cell)...after 90 days (roughly)...they take your beloved but illegal Erhu freedom away forever...they will use "her/him" in their display sessions for general educational purpose...to remind people that this is the outcome of importing an illegal item to our law-abiding country. Second offence, you will be fined a few hundred dollars...your "illegal" Erhu will meet the same fate as the rest of the "illegal" aliens came before her. Third offence, you will be taken to court....your fate will be determined by a judge...well, please ask a lawyer of your choice...I have no idea what is going to happen to you...maybe some of our members know the answer!
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| Posted: Sun Nov 18th, 2007 10:47 pm |
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28th Post |
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thunderbird Approved
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Some customs officiers might just slash the Erhu or destory the Erhu in a manner that they see fit to the circumstances...but the principle remains...no mercy for any "illegal" Erhu! Some people (Canadians) still would like to take the risk over a matter of $30 USD or less (cost of a permit)...I wish them luck! Don't forget CND is equal or higher than the USD nowadays!...we sure have more spending power! 
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| Posted: Tue Nov 20th, 2007 12:56 pm |
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29th Post |
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Bayun Approved
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Have just passed an Erhu on Ebay that I had fallen in love with for appearance. The price was also fine, but the guy was unable to supply the CITES paper. He promised to cover the snake skin with something, but I am not taking that kinda risk. Here in the EU, you can get 3 year imprisonment for the most serious cases (usually for livestock), but surely will be fined for an Erhu that they also confiscate. Regarding the fact that it is illegal to import Erhus with python skin into the EU and to most other European countries, as well as to the USA and CDN, I cannot cease to wonder on how those sellers on eBay are able to sell their stuff overseas. This particular seller had sold one without the permit to Australia that went through the customs without problem...
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| Posted: Tue Nov 20th, 2007 04:54 pm |
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30th Post |
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thunderbird Approved
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Bayun wrote:Have just passed an Erhu on Ebay that I had fallen in love with for appearance. The price was also fine, but the guy was unable to supply the CITES paper. He promised to cover the snake skin with something, but I am not taking that kinda risk. Here in the EU, you can get 3 year imprisonment for the most serious cases (usually for livestock), but surely will be fined for an Erhu that they also confiscate. Regarding the fact that it is illegal to import Erhus with python skin into the EU and to most other European countries, as well as to the USA and CDN, I cannot cease to wonder on how those sellers on eBay are able to sell their stuff overseas. This particular seller had sold one without the permit to Australia that went through the customs without problem... Some customers are willingly or knowingly taking the risk...not only risking the Erhu that they ordered...they are also risking their hard-earned money (some people's money are not hard-earned, so they can afford to throw them away) ...hahahahha...just kidding!...some people regard taking risk as a fun activity...especially if they don't get caught...some people also regard getting around the laws as an exciting game...people's intentions and behaviors are too complex for any black-and-white interpretation!Sellers on the other hand pocket the cash before they send out the Erhu...they are not taking any risk...do they care when the Erhu is seized or destoryed?...well, maybe one or two sellers do care but it is rare in nowadays "dog-eats-dog" world...once the money is in the seller's pocket...good luck! Here comes the third factor...the enforcer of the laws...in this case the customs...the wild life branch...the narcotic branch...etc...do they (every single officers) always stand on their toes with their eyes wide open...I know they don't...the volume of every day parcel traffic is massive...even a trained qulaity control staff in a factory setting can't guarantee 100% inspection outcome! The bottom line is that if consumers take the risk, do the crime and get caught...they would have to do the time too...in this case, the Canadian court might not put them behind bars (our jails are filled to capacity...no more space for the illegal erhu importers)....hahahaha...good news or bad news?...but they know how to dish out enough financial punishment to discourage the "criminal" behaviors for those people who are importing something "illegal" to our country! Do you think seller will go for the following approach? ...I would like to see the Erhu sellers guarantee their delivery...big prints... ..."I will accept your money when the Erhu is safely arrived in your hand...if you are fined by your customs...we will pay for the fines...and if you are taken to court by the customs...we would pay for your laywer fees, lost of time (from job and erhu play), and provide financial compensation for your mental anguish and lost of sleep!...we would further guarantee that after all the dust are settled...you will have one of our best Erhu in your possession (legally) "...of course I am a bit being sarcastic...but I hope people can see my point!As I mentioned before...ultimately, I blame the system for creating such a mess in the Erhu market...I suggest that all these organizations get their acts together and certify every Erhu produced...so every Erhu is legal before reaching the market for the consumers...just like any other musical instruements. I view the current Erhu market situation as a really serious and shameful joke for the Erhu industry...how hard it is to make every Erhu legal even before the skin is mounted onto the drum?...gee...if people can walk on the moon...what else people can't do if they just start using only 1 % of their untapped brain power!  .........
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| Posted: Tue Nov 20th, 2007 06:02 pm |
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31st Post |
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Bayun Approved
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I very much agree with you here. There seems to be an anarchy on the eBay- and maybe on the domestic Chinese Erhu market. It is a shame that I cannot get hold of a thing that I fell in love with. I admit that the price in this case might be reasonable partly because illegal (thus cheaper) python skin was used. The problem is that this very company who made this one is a small one in Tianjin that concentrates on selling in China without even supplying the Chinese golden registration card. They just don't care, because they are too small to make it big. Their prices are kept low, even if the workmanship looks really fine. But since they do not care, their products will never get out of the domestic market. No wonder you don't see as many octagonal Erhus in Europe. I wanted one, and see how it ended. I share your view that it would help the market if CITES agreement appendices were executed and controlled properly in China. I agree with the basic principles of CITES, but I think it is unrealistic to expect a country (where the use of parts of endangered species in traditional medicine is so extensive) to clean things up on the python skin business. As for taking financial risks for fun, not my kind of a pastime. Even if I estimate the probablility for an averagely dumb Hungarian customs officer to recognize an Erhu and a python skin less than 20 percent, I am NOT taking that kind of risk. Thus this very love remains Platonic for now... Last edited on Tue Nov 20th, 2007 06:11 pm by Bayun |
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| Posted: Wed Nov 21st, 2007 02:29 am |
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32nd Post |
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mikebgn Approved
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Bayun wrote: I share your view that it would help the market if CITES agreement appendices were executed and controlled properly in China. I agree with the basic principles of CITES, but I think it is unrealistic to expect a country (where the use of parts of endangered species in traditional medicine is so extensive) to clean things up on the python skin business. Ya, I would agree it would be best if things were done properly at the source. But having been to south east asia and given a country where there seems to be no qualms about putting lead into children's toys, sad to say I'm not sure if there is priority or even awareness of things like the environment and protection of species if they don't even care about children. Up until recently, the only way we have known how to get a decent quality erhu at a reasonable price was from fellow musicians visiting china, buying one at a very good price and bringing it back [problem is, of course, when fellow musicians don't want to part with a very good one that they found ;-)] I honestly think that those sellers in china may not know anything about CITES and neither do most of the musicians, until they get one ripped up by customs. I had no idea about CITES until I came across this forum... Last edited on Wed Nov 21st, 2007 03:00 am by mikebgn |
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| Posted: Fri Nov 23rd, 2007 05:41 pm |
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33rd Post |
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thunderbird Approved
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mikebgn wrote:Bayun wrote:I share your view that it would help the market if CITES agreement appendices were executed and controlled properly in China. I agree with the basic principles of CITES, but I think it is unrealistic to expect a country (where the use of parts of endangered species in traditional medicine is so extensive) to clean things up on the python skin business. Just for your information...every person is allowed to bring two Erhus out from China...ask your friend(s) to buy two...and he/she can leave you with the "second best" Erhu...I suppose it is common that people would like to keep the best for themselves...especially for those experienced Erhu players!
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| Posted: Sat Nov 24th, 2007 01:25 am |
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34th Post |
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mikebgn Approved
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Oh? Do you mean they are allowed to bring 2 erhus *out* of China or they allowed to bring 2 erhus *into* Canada? 2 erhus into Canada meaning two without duties/taxes or something? thanks..
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| Posted: Sat Nov 24th, 2007 04:30 pm |
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35th Post |
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thunderbird Approved
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mikebgn wrote:Oh? Do you mean they are allowed to bring 2 erhus *out* of China or they allowed to bring 2 erhus *into* Canada? 2 erhus into Canada meaning two without duties/taxes or something? thanks.. I was recently told by one of the Chinese CITES officials that visitors in China from abroad are allowed to carry two Erhu (Max) when they leave China (with proper permits and provided that they (Erhus) are for personal use and not for commercial purposes...apparantly getting a permit for personal use is less difficult than for commerical exportation). As far as the Canadian customs...they will tax you according to your personal exemption limits...they do follow certain equations when working out the percentage with each type of product!...I don't work for the customs, so I don't really know their trade secrets...maybe some forum members who worked in the customs.... would be able to give us a better picture as to how they determine the amount of taxs for each item of different consumer goods.
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| Posted: Sun Nov 25th, 2007 02:11 am |
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36th Post |
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mikebgn Approved
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Thanks for all the great info.. Good to know for when I make the pilgrimage out to Tianjin in search of fabled erhu heaven (cloning factory) mentioned in another thread :-) Last edited on Sun Nov 25th, 2007 10:23 pm by mikebgn |
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| Posted: Mon Dec 3rd, 2007 06:10 pm |
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37th Post |
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mikebgn Approved
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Just to share some feedback I received from Canadian CITES office. To avoid hassles if paperwork is not filled in exactly the way they want, I was trying to make sure all "i"'s are dotted and "t"'s crossed and paperwork was folded in the proper expected fashion. For CITES Appendix 2 animal skin such as from Python Molurus Bivittatus (Burmese Python), Canada customs requires a CITES export permit from the country the erhu is bought from. I asked them what names should be in the "permitee" and "consignee" portions on the export permit when there are 3 parties involved: a) the selling store in other country that is obtaining/providing the CITES export permit for us b) the person buying the erhu in the other country and bringing it into Canada with them c) the person who will ultimately get the erhu in Canada. Here is the jist of it: ---- If your friend is bringing the instrument with them to you, the permit should indicate: Permittee = your friend's name and address Consignee = your name and address If the store mails the instrument to you, the permit should indicate: Permittee = store name and address Consignee = your name and address Your friend should apply for the permit himself if the store is not doing the exporting. On the application, he can indicate the name and address of the store he bought the instrument from and the CITES Authority can make the connection from there. For your information, contact information for all Parties to CITES can be found on the CITES Secretariat website at http://www.cites.org and clicking on "National contacts". ---- I'm guessing if the person buying the erhu oversees and bringing it back to canada with them for themselves then permitee and consignee may be the same name/address. I didn't ask them about this so this is just a guess. I think the idea is the person doing the exporting needs to be the permitee and the ultimate owner will be the consignee. Last edited on Mon Dec 3rd, 2007 06:14 pm by mikebgn |
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| Posted: Mon Dec 3rd, 2007 07:02 pm |
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38th Post |
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Clyde Approved
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God Bless Last edited on Thu Jul 10th, 2008 07:48 am by Clyde |
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| Posted: Tue Dec 4th, 2007 04:00 am |
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39th Post |
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thunderbird Approved
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mikebgn wrote:Just to share some feedback I received from Canadian CITES office. Mike, You are providing an excellent community service to our Canadian fellows...definitely we Canadian do not want to waste our hard earned money...and a darn good Erhu! 
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| Posted: Thu Dec 6th, 2007 01:19 am |
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40th Post |
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thunderbird Approved
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Recent news from China regarding exporting python snake skin Erhus to oversea countries. Title: Bringing (exporting) python snake skin Erhus out from China will be confiscated 带蟒蛇皮二胡出国将被没收 2007-5-23 18:34:00 省林业局呼吁举报非法经营保护动物行为 新快报讯 （记者 余亚莲 实习生 黄丽 通讯员 赵钊怡）“带着用蟒蛇皮做的二胡到了国外可能会被追究刑事责任。”昨日，省林业局相关负责人做客广东“民声热线”时表示，用蟒蛇皮做的二胡若要出境则必须得到相关部门的审批。 在昨天的节目中，针对广州的张先生询问带蟒蛇皮二胡到日本要办何种手续的疑问，省林业局野生动植物保护办公室主任廖庆祥说，蟒蛇是国家一级野生保护动物，若要带蟒蛇皮二胡出国，可带上买二胡的发票，到省林业局申请。由于中国已加入《野生动物植物濒危物种国际贸易公约》，若没有这些手续直接把用蟒蛇皮做的二胡带出国，到了国外被发现肯定会被没收，若是数量多还会被追究刑事责任。 廖庆祥说，最近几年，一些非法经营、销售野生动物的不法分子手段越来越隐蔽，廖庆祥呼吁广大市民积极举报。 另悉，省林业局最近根据群众举报在番禺查获了一批国家一级保护动物五爪金龙。目前，犯罪嫌疑人已被森林公安抓获。 I will translate a few important points from this artcle later when I have a chance...sorry I have to run again!
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