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| Moderated by: Tony Provencher, Richard Hefner | Page: 1 2 3 4 5 6 ...   |
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| Bridge mass? | Rate Topic |
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| Posted: Wed Oct 17th, 2007 12:01 pm |
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1st Post |
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Bayun Approved 
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On my ebony Erhu I find the overall tone a little too harsh. I am after a considerably softer and mellower tone without the need to invest in a new instrument. I have tried to mess around with different thicknesses and softnesses of dampening materials from felt through the softest deer skin to tanned leather, but lost fuel after a while. I settled for soft deer skin, but the harshness remains. My ears tell me that I get too much snake skin vibration and too little resonator box vibration. Since I cannot alter the construction to make the wood resonate more, it is obvious that I have to make the skin drum vibrate less. With the dampener I cannot get more results. I am aware the fact that the lighter the vibrating mass (bridge) is, the brighter and louder the instrument gets. In conclusion, the bigger the mass of the bridge is, the mellower and softer the tone oughtta get. Has anybody tried to experiment with different sizes (not necessarily height but mass) of bridges of the same material??? I am using ebony (black wood) bridges. Cheers!
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| Posted: Wed Oct 17th, 2007 01:39 pm |
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2nd Post |
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thunderbird Approved 
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Bayun wrote:On my ebony Erhu I find the overall tone a little too harsh. I am after a considerably softer and mellower tone without the need to invest in a new instrument. I have tried to mess around with different thicknesses and softnesses of dampening materials from felt through the softest deer skin to tanned leather, but lost fuel after a while. I settled for soft deer skin, but the harshness remains. I have the same thought but lack of action trying out what you have suggested i.e. different masses. I would like to use different bridge diameters and see how it is going to affect the quality of the tone. Currently, too many projects going in my life...I hope eventually I will get my hands on it...in the meantime, please share your result with us. I would like to do it systematically...like sticking to the same wood material and increase the diameter of the bridge by certain fixed ratios!...in other words...hold everything constant and only change one variable incrementally at a time by certain values! I like your idea!  
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| Posted: Wed Oct 17th, 2007 02:11 pm |
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3rd Post |
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Clyde Approved 
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God Bless Last edited on Thu Jul 10th, 2008 06:51 am by Clyde |
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| Posted: Mon Oct 29th, 2007 05:40 pm |
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4th Post |
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Bayun Approved
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Today I had time to experiment a little with bridges and found that even a slight variation on bridge shape and mass can have tremendous effect on the balance and tone. Being a low-budget player, I always take my time to try to bring out the best of a given instrument I possess. Needless to say, I love such messing-arounds. I am far from being over with experimenting with bridges, in the far future I am going to try African ebony, boxwood, even a bone bridge, if I will have time to sculpt a decent one. As for what I did, here's the clue. Since Clyde's suggestion to put cloth under the bridge to kill overtones and to adjust vibration to the optimum has proved to be a brilliant one, I went on elaborating the idea. I tried to double the thickness of the canvas with using a really old but not too thick 100% cotton towel. I used soft glue to glue it to the bottom of the bridge. The resulting setup has killed all the remaining harshness I disliked. No more telephone-tone. Farewell, Blue Monday! Next I picked two brand new black bridges. Since the snake skin is quite tight on my Erhu, I am using a rather low bridge to elongate skin life. Therefore, I had to adjust the height of those new bridges. They looked almost identical in shape and mass. On one bridge I sanded from the top, where it became thicker due to the sloping sides. The thick-tip bridge had a factory-made convex, rounded bottom that I left intact. I went to the other bridge. There I rather sanded from the bottom, leaving the top edge almost intact and rather thin. This bridge had slightly less mass at the end, since the same height had been sanded off from the bottom. Also, its bottom was finished completely flat. I rubbed new string slots with used strings into both bridges. Having fine polished and having glued the cotton ccloth to their bottom, I tested both bridges. The thicker-tip one sounded nice. I switched to the flat-bottomed one with less mass and BINGO, I found sweetness and balance that had not been there before. Also gained back some volume that had been lost due to the canvas. My wife was cooking and only said "I think you have found it". My quest for the time being has ended. I think I can say I am really satisfied with the tone now, especially, If I consider the price-value ratio of this rather cheap Dunhuang Erhu. The bottom line: I think there must be a lot of quite cheap, but labor-intensive methods to improve most instruments' tone. There seem to be many ways around to fine-adjust skin vibration for the best compromise. Thanks for Clyde again for the inspiration. Cheers! B.
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| Posted: Tue Oct 30th, 2007 07:26 pm |
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5th Post |
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Clyde Approved
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God Bless Last edited on Thu Jul 10th, 2008 06:51 am by Clyde |
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| Posted: Wed Oct 31st, 2007 05:33 am |
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6th Post |
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tansungwah Approved 
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Thanks for sharing Bayun. I'll try it one of these days as well. Sung Wah
____________________ Online Store: Erhu Pipa Guzheng Liuqin Ruan Sanxian Yangqin Hulusi Dizi Suona Xiao Chinese Music Instruments Blog Follow me on Twitter! |
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| Posted: Wed Oct 31st, 2007 01:18 pm |
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7th Post |
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Bayun Approved
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One last thought as a conclusion. Someone experienced might correct me, if I am wrong here... I reckon, after all I have read on the issue plus what my ears tell me, that the basic problem of my Erhu (and possibly of most cheap Erhus) is the fact, that the thickness of the python skin drum is not tuned to the acual body air-cavity and the mass of the wooden plates. In other words, on cheaper Erhus the snake skin is NOT THICK ENOUGH. Possibly made of the hind part of the reptile and from areas close to the belly. I assume that on hand-made instruments the luthier pays attention to select a piece of skin of uniform thickness whose overall thickness is selected to the given resonator box. I am also guessing that they will also try different skin drums and settle for one that makes the body sound nice and warm. Since all the telephone-tone/diaphragm-sound harshness in my case came from the too thin skin-diaphragm and hence the too much skin vibration, the only thing that gets me closer to a mellower tone is using a more effective dampener, using the cloth-bottomed bridge and similar other methods to reduce the vibration of the skin. Of course, I do not think any of these can get good results on their own. All seem to have their limits. Possibly a combination of all available small changes can lead to a well-tuned and balanced compromise that mass-production can not offer. Although I am settled for a while now, the next step will necessarily be to try bigger mass bridges. Does anyone have an idea where different mass bridges of the same material are available before I start sculpting??? Different shapes and width, and bigger than normal mass I am thinking of... Do Zhonghus have bigger bridges for one thing? Cheers, B.
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| Posted: Wed Oct 31st, 2007 01:19 pm |
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8th Post |
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Bayun Approved
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Last edited on Wed Oct 31st, 2007 01:22 pm by Bayun |
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| Posted: Wed Oct 31st, 2007 02:46 pm |
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9th Post |
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Clyde Approved
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God Bless Last edited on Thu Jul 10th, 2008 06:52 am by Clyde |
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| Posted: Sun Nov 4th, 2007 01:27 pm |
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10th Post |
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thunderbird Approved
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Bayun wrote:One last thought as a conclusion. Someone experienced might correct me, if I am wrong here... Have you tried this?...please see attached...I like her new voice.  ...I sanded the wood down to paper thin!Attachment: Dscn1933 close-up copy.jpg (Downloaded 210 times)
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| Posted: Sun Nov 4th, 2007 01:29 pm |
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11th Post |
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thunderbird Approved
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Better view (flash picture)...not as blur! Attachment: Dscn1934 copy.jpg (Downloaded 210 times)
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| Posted: Sun Nov 4th, 2007 01:30 pm |
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12th Post |
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thunderbird Approved
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The best view! Attachment: Dscn1935 copy.jpg (Downloaded 212 times) Last edited on Sun Nov 4th, 2007 01:32 pm by thunderbird |
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| Posted: Sun Nov 4th, 2007 02:08 pm |
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13th Post |
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Clyde Approved
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God Bless Last edited on Thu Jul 10th, 2008 06:52 am by Clyde |
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| Posted: Sun Nov 4th, 2007 04:18 pm |
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14th Post |
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Bayun Approved
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Well, Thunderbird, First of all, you have a nice huqin collection. Second, you don't seem to spare on the rosin. Here is a shot of where I am now with the bridge plus the rather thick greyish-dyed deerskin dampener that is not only rolled up but the wraps are glued together as well to be stiffer in order to supply effective dampening on a bigger surface. You can also see the canvas under the bridge. Your idea of the wooden plate looks interesting. What has changed in the tone? What type of wood is the plate made of? Hard wood or pine? Give us details. Cheers, B. Attachment: MyResoBox4.jpg (Downloaded 212 times) Last edited on Sun Nov 4th, 2007 04:26 pm by Bayun |
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| Posted: Sun Nov 4th, 2007 04:29 pm |
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15th Post |
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Bayun Approved
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Plus this is where I ended up with my Qian Jin. Finally I inserted a piece of thread to separate the strings for cleaner sustain, but tied it this way so that it wouldn't fall out. Attachment: MyQianJin.jpg (Downloaded 219 times)
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| Posted: Mon Nov 5th, 2007 07:09 pm |
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16th Post |
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thunderbird Approved
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Clyde wrote:Interesting Thunderbird, how is your tone and volume projection? The volume is more or less the same...the tone is a bit softer.
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| Posted: Mon Nov 5th, 2007 07:38 pm |
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17th Post |
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thunderbird Approved
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Bayun wrote:Well, Thunderbird, Yes, I like my girlfriends...hahahaha...the more the better! :Usually I clean off the dirts from skin and strings after playing...well, this time I was really lazy and didn't bother! The wood is the type that they use to make banhu...the wood material is from China...sorry, I forgot the name of the wood...it is not a hard wood...I bet any soft wood would do the trick...just sand it down to paper thin...I kind of agree with your "thickness" theory...so I guess by increasing the thickness...the tone should be a bit less harsh!...I believe the tone is a bit softer now!...I like the new voice but my wife doesn't...I guess to each his/her own. You know that little project took me more than a few hours to accomplish...I have to look for the wood...work out the way to sand it down to paper thin...and actually doing it...that's too much for me! If you are interested in trying out the wood plate, please share results with us...I was going to vary the size of the plate...but again due to lack of time and patient...I didn't do it!  
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| Posted: Mon Nov 5th, 2007 07:40 pm |
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18th Post |
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thunderbird Approved
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Bayun wrote:Plus this is where I ended up with my Qian Jin. Finally I inserted a piece of thread to separate the strings for cleaner sustain, but tied it this way so that it wouldn't fall out. Smart way of separating the strings!
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| Posted: Mon Nov 5th, 2007 07:56 pm |
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19th Post |
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thunderbird Approved
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Bayun wrote:Well, Thunderbird, I can see the canvas now! My plate idea might have come from your canvas idea...well, plus your "thickness" theory! Kind of fun to experience with different voices...in my view, cetain music pieces can be best done by certain voices...when I was doing one of those sad pieces (titled "Remembering my old village")...I use a higher pitch voice to express my feelings...my wife commented that it was like a woman sobbing while singing that piece...well, maybe a deeper voice would have the same result but definitely not the same effect on the listeners!
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| Posted: Sun Nov 11th, 2007 08:22 pm |
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20th Post |
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Bayun Approved
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Today I had an hour, so I sculpted a bridge out of boxwood. Boxwood is really dense (I feel it denser than Indian ebony). It is used for pegs and tailpiaces of violins, just as ebony is. It gets darker with age, but normally it is yellow, resonant, hard to carve and it polishes to a lustrous shine. I had had fine results with it in the past for dobro-type resonator guitar bridge inserts, that is why I tried it on the Erhu. I made the bridge the avarege size, because now I rather wanted to test material than mass. The bridge is not round, but oval in shape. When I finished, I glued the canvas to its bottom and found the tone to my liking. Not as dark as black wood, but mellower for sure. The A string got softer as well. I think now that boxwood is a good material, if your Erhu is too harsh on the higher notes, or if a less dark colored lower register is needed. Since it is damn hard, bridges made of it will last a hundred times longer than black wood or white wood... Cheers! B. Attachment: MyResoBoxwood5.jpg (Downloaded 204 times)
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