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mark
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Posted: Fri Apr 6th, 2007 05:37 pm |
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Hi,
I am having a slight problem with my tuning (using standard Dulcijo tuning, Open D)...
When I tune each individual string (using an electronic tuner) it tunes fine (to AAD) but when I fret the 2nd string at the 3rd fret (D note) against the open 1st string (D note) they are way off when they should be the same note / pitch. Checking this fretted 2nd string D note on my tuner shows it is indeed way off but when the open A note is played it is pretty much spot on.
Any suggestions?
Thanks,
Mark
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theBlackman
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Posted: Fri Apr 6th, 2007 06:25 pm |
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Could be any number of reasons:
1: Bridge saddle is too high. When you tune by fret, the string is stressed beyond the normal and you get a Higher pitch. Then when you play it is flat.
2: Nut is too high/low. Same conditions and results + or - in pitch.
3: Frets are slightly out of proper spacing.
4: Fret is too high at the tuning point.
5: The tuner needs new batteries.
Any or all of these could be causing your problem.
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Richard Hefner
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Posted: Fri Apr 6th, 2007 07:22 pm |
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Mark,
Try e-mailing Michael Fox and tell him about your problem. He and Richard Shook build and set up all of those Dulcijos personally and they're really picky about fret placement and everything else. I would be surprised if it has anything to do with the construction.
One thing that occurs to me is that since the bridge is movable it might not be placed incorrectly. Do you know how to figure out the bridge placement? If not, that's most likely the problem.
If you want to contact Michael but don't have his email address, e-mail me and I'll forward it to him or I'll send you his e-mail address. I don't want to post it here in case he doesn't want it posted in a forum.
My address is richard@hefner.com
I'm already on every junk mail list in the world anyway so it doesn't really matter.
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mark
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Posted: Fri Apr 6th, 2007 10:00 pm |
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One thing that occurs to me is that since the bridge is movable it might not be placed incorrectly. Do you know how to figure out the bridge placement? If not, that's most likely the problem.
Richard - I didn't want to say anything (just in case my diagnosis was incorrect) but this is what I suspected too. I don't think it has moved significantly (if at all) but as it is kept in a soft case I guess it could have got knocked slightly. To answer your question no, I do not know how to figure out the correct placement - can you help?
Thanks,
Mark
Last edited on Fri Apr 6th, 2007 10:01 pm by mark
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mark
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Posted: Fri Apr 6th, 2007 11:13 pm |
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OK, just guess work here based on a little internet research but ..
For setting a bridge on a 5-string banjo a lot of reference is given to the open and 12th fretted (and sometimes harmonic) note - This is an octave apart right? My reference shows that (basically) you can measure from the nut to the 12th fret and then the measurement should be the same from the 12th fret to the "basic" bridge placement. You then play the open note and then the 12th fretted, moving the bridge forward or back dependent on whether the note is sharp or flat. This continues for the rest of the strings (moving bridge back or foward accordingly but pivoting it at the string already set).
So, on the Dulcijo instead of the 12th I use the open and 7th fretted note (an octave apart). Is this right?
Thanks,
Mark
Last edited on Fri Apr 6th, 2007 11:14 pm by mark
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Richard Hefner
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Posted: Sat Apr 7th, 2007 09:41 am |
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You got it... the 7th fret on the Dulcijo.
Remember that there is a 6 and 6+ fret on there so it's actually the 8th (but what we refer to as the 7th).
http://www.ezfolk.com/dulcijo/tutorials/diatonic-scale/diatonic-scale.html
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mark
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Posted: Sat Apr 7th, 2007 01:31 pm |
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Thanks Richard.
Yep - I know about 6 & 6+
I will give this a go later tonight maybe (at least the measurements) as I am working in my garden most of today (due to the nice sunny weather!) and am covered in dirt / muck at the moment (just taking a short tea break).
Mark
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mark
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Posted: Sat Apr 7th, 2007 11:08 pm |
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Well I tried checking the bridge alignment tonight - it would appear it was slightly out (about a sixteenth of an inch) at the first string and slightly straight overall - I suspect it either got knocked when taking the Dulcijo in and out of the gig-bag (or my 3 year old has been helping himself!). I also had to angle the bridge a little for the second string (the problem string in my case!). The angle isn't huge, about the same as the pictured Dulcijo below which strangely enough also happens to be both the picture in my avatar and the model type that I own (darker stained maple neck and burl pot) 
It's not perfect now but it's 200% better than it was and as it was my first attempt at this task and I spent about an hour or so, measuring, moving, tuning, checking etc I am reasonably happy with it. I suspect that I may end up replacing the strings soon anyway so I will be going through the process again anyway.
Thanks,
Mark
edited for picture addition and typosLast edited on Sun Apr 8th, 2007 12:05 am by mark
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banjo brad
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Posted: Sun Apr 8th, 2007 02:26 am |
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" I suspect that I may end up replacing the strings soon anyway so I will be going through the process again anyway."
I change one string at a time on my banjo, thus preventing the need of re-placing the bridge each string change. Once you have the bridge located properly, use a pencil to make small marks at the edge of the feet, providing a visual clue in case the bridge gets knocked over or you have to take off all the strings.
Brad
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mark
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Posted: Sun Apr 8th, 2007 07:42 am |
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Thanks Brad - I would have changed strings one at a time natrually anyway (same as I do for guitar) but that's a good tip about the pencil mark- I'll give it a go.
Thanks,
Mark
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Richard Hefner
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Posted: Sun Apr 8th, 2007 04:45 pm |
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Mark,
I received an email from Michael Fox about your problem. He was having a problem logging in to the forums so he just sent me a message instead. He's going to try to get logged in soon though and should be able to answer any other questions you might have. Here's what he said about tuning the Dulcijo...
Michael Fox said:
The dulcijos are fretted using a scale from Stewart-Mcdonald which is made in a way that the fret positions are sawed automatically, exactly the same every time. As you know, the whole science of frets is a challenge. Some calculators add in compensation and some don't. There are many compensator bridges for banjos to try to minimize overtones. I feel comfortable that if Mark's dulcijo was in my hands I could make the tuning as true as anyone would ever want. I don't believe any stringed instrument is perfect. To be absolutely perfect the fret placement would have to be altered exactly for the height of the action. The action gets progressively higher as it gets to the bridge so each fret would have to be compensated individually. Most good instruments are true to our ears and tuners but not perfect. I think electric tuners these days cause people to not develop their hearing to the point that is necessary to tune effectively.
The way I set the bridge on our dulcijos is to tune the three strings to harmonize to my ear and then the 2nd string matches the 3rd. Then I check to see if the 1st string 4th fret matches the 3rd string open. Then I check to see if the 13th fret 1st string (12th fret if you're counting a 6 and 6+) sounds like the 3rd string open. If it does not I adjust the bridge until it does. The upper part of the bridge is tilted back until the 2nd string 3rd fret sounds like the first string open. If this is accomplished the dulcijo will fret as true as it can and I feel as true as any banjo. Because up the neck true fretting is so crucial on the dulcijo, the dulcijo fretting is more critical than most banjos and I feel more accurate. Before we started using the Stewart-Mcdonald scale (many years ago) I matched dulcimers for the fret scales. I found alot of handmade dulcimers were fretted incorrectly and did not fret true.
Hope that helps! Feel free to ask any other questions you have.
Richard
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mark
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Posted: Sun Apr 8th, 2007 07:21 pm |
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Thanks Richard.
I am confident it was the bridge placement as discussed. I am new to this afterall (but learning!) and admit to not spotting that it had moved slightly and only noticed the symptom, not the cause. I am very happy with my dulcijo and have no doubt it was built and set up to their (Richard & Michael) exacting standards.
Mark
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mark
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Posted: Tue Apr 17th, 2007 08:23 pm |
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Fretting a little lighter and a change of strings has also helped further
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