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| Moderated by: Tony Provencher, Richard Hefner | Page: 1 2   |
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| Converting a tenor neck to 5-string | Rate Topic |
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| Posted: Tue Oct 17th, 2006 02:33 pm |
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1st Post |
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Philj200 Approved 
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Over on the concurrent cookie-can banjo thread, I got the idea to try and build one as well. (A bunch of us seems to be nibbling at the idea.) Mine will be different since I have a bunch of parts sitting around. One of the them is a tenor neck. It's a good one, but I have no need for it. And since it has a wooden truss already attached, it would serve well in the cookie-can structure. But it's a tenor! (Already have a tenor I seldom touch.) In the 60's, a bunch of tenors and plectrums were converted to 5-string. I even worked on a few myself back them. What I'm thinking of in flattening the edge of the neck from the heel to the 5th fret and attaching a strip of hardwood, then shape it and sand, sand, sand. This strip will be the fretboard under the fifth string. (Still not sure about frets. Leaning towards no frets, to perserve my sanity.) I've seen conversions that simply had a 5-string peg tapped into the neck with the string just suspended in air. It worked if you never had to retune beyond the limits of the string itself. But it looked so ugly! Would welcome advice just about now. Last edited on Tue Oct 17th, 2006 02:34 pm by Philj200 ____________________ My MP3 Section: http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1143/ My Myspace area: http://myspace.com/philj200 |
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| Posted: Thu Oct 19th, 2006 03:16 pm |
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2nd Post |
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Philj200 Approved
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Well, since this thread has set the board on fire, I'll think out loud for a moment: How's theproject coming" --Pretty good. Most of the anticipated parts are already assembled. What are you using to widen the neck" --I have a nice piece of cedar I'm considering. But I don't know durable it will be. Local lumber yard can order hardwood. Maybe I should buy a piece of ebony for the fingerboard and use the cedar underneath? The existing fingerboard is black but exactly what wood, I have no idea. What about the cookie can itself? --Found one similar to Gerard. Not as tall so I might not have to cut it down. So, what's next? --Deciding if I really want to cut/flatten/re-shape the top of the neck. Or bevel the extension piece in the unlikely event the neck returns to duty as a tenor. Strings...nylon or steel? --Good question. I'm impressed with Gerard's sound. And I heard nylon strung banjos played at the event in Brooklyn in September. And liked what I heard. I'm not sure which way to go. But it's not irrevocable decision. I'll probably try nylon. I wonder what strings to us. What 'up? --Had a piece of luck. The edge material on the side of the neck that will be widened is loose. I can take it off and glue it to the extension. and keep a horogenious look. I saw that Vega tenor neck of yours. It's really small. --Good catch. It's a 19-fret tenor but a little on the small size. That might help. I don't know if a G-tuning will be G without rattling, or maybe this will tuned higher. Only fitting since my LNs are tuned lower to open E. If it all works, it may be a convienent travel banjo. I could even store cookies in it.
____________________ My MP3 Section: http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1143/ My Myspace area: http://myspace.com/philj200 |
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| Posted: Thu Oct 19th, 2006 08:47 pm |
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3rd Post |
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Philj200 Approved
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Okay, I solved the connundrum of the widened neck (in theory). I'm ordering a blank rosewood fingerboard from StewMac. It's thin. So I'll have to use a few plies to get the right thickness. But I don't have to stack the plies evenly. They can be offset to accomdate the side curve of the banjo neck. I have some hand guages that should smooth the inside of the extension. The very top ply will be cut sligthly shallow of the full width to accept the edging. The etire extension on this small neck is only going to be maybe eight or nine inched long. I left a message on Gerard's thread asking for advice on strings. We will soon be at the sawdust stage.
____________________ My MP3 Section: http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1143/ My Myspace area: http://myspace.com/philj200 |
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| Posted: Fri Nov 3rd, 2006 08:23 pm |
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4th Post |
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Philj200 Approved
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Now to see if anyone is reading this. Over on Gerard's thread, I posted an update on my new creation, a banjoreo. I posted there because I forgot I started this thread. Over the weekend I'll attach the neck widener I carved from oak last night. I found the missing 5th-string peg. But couldn't find the 5th-string post I know I have )someplace) so I ordered two bone pegs from StewMac. (One will go on frankenbanjo whose post is not too good). Now the question: What is the easiest/best way to bore the hole for the 5th string. I have a pretty well equipped bench. I'm concerned about the slight taper of the end of the peg.
____________________ My MP3 Section: http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1143/ My Myspace area: http://myspace.com/philj200 |
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| Posted: Sat Nov 4th, 2006 03:13 am |
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5th Post |
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vrteach Approved 
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There are special reamers you can buy for making the taper for the 5th string peg. I believe that they are essentially a violin-peg-hole reamer that has been cut short. If you are just doing this once, then another option is shaping a dowel or something, and wrapping it with sand paper.
____________________ Erich -- http://www.ezfolk.com/audio/bands/956/ http://vrteach.org |
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| Posted: Sat Nov 4th, 2006 01:01 pm |
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6th Post |
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Philj200 Approved
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Thanks for replying: StewMac has special reamers for sale at $18 a pop. Not for a one time job. I'm thinking I'll drill a hole at the narrowest part of the taper and bore it wider with a Dremel.
____________________ My MP3 Section: http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1143/ My Myspace area: http://myspace.com/philj200 |
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| Posted: Sun Nov 5th, 2006 01:08 am |
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7th Post |
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vrteach Approved
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Well, when I do this (and I probably will eventially) I will use something slower than a dremel. I know that when I was doing my research for building my tackhead I came across someone who described using the sandpaper wrapped around something method, maybe even wrapped around the tuner that was going in, and just not doing it very deeply. It was a page about doing one of the kits from Gold Tone...Ah, here it is. And the page is: http://www.thekimerers.com/brian/gt/gtpipnut.html He found that the 5th-string tuner hole provided had not been tapered, so he worked out his own tool to do it. This guy posts pretty often on the banjo hangout, and was great help to me when I was working on my tackhead, particularly on the subject of finish (he uses tru-oil, and now so do I).
____________________ Erich -- http://www.ezfolk.com/audio/bands/956/ http://vrteach.org |
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| Posted: Sun Nov 5th, 2006 02:44 am |
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8th Post |
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Philj200 Approved
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Thanks Erich. I saved the information. The writer is correct about keeping the workbench clean. His is operating room spotless compared with mine. This morning while prepping to paint my front porch, a piece of banjo neck edging fell behind the bench. It's like a worm-hole to oblivion back there. Easier to order another piece than look for it. Tell us about the banjo you built. Is it the one on your EZF home page? I rummaged a bit further and found a short (1-1/2" reamer bit) for a 3/8" drill. I have a pretty steady hand and think I can work with this. I may also practice on an oak scrap. I wish I had a drill press. Then I would set it to tap only a given distance for safety. But if I wo't by an $18 hand reamer, I can't justify a drill press, being that I went so long without one. I like Goldtone products and the attitude of their people. I purchased a neck from them, a factory second, that was not of commercial quality for them to sell because of finish problems. But I put the time into it that they, for whatever reason, didn't want to, and with heart-in-mouth woodjoinery married that neck to an early 60's Vega pot. Got the idea to contact them from EZF. Might have been you. Or Lyle. Or Brad. Or Charles. Or Gary. Or Richard. Or friends to numerous to count.
____________________ My MP3 Section: http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1143/ My Myspace area: http://myspace.com/philj200 |
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| Posted: Sun Nov 5th, 2006 02:50 pm |
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9th Post |
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vrteach Approved
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The banjo is indeed the one I show in the EZF picture. I have put together a few other pictures and a collection of tunes/songs at: http://vrteach.freepgs.com/banjo/tackhead.php I modeled it after a number of instruments pictured in America's Instrument: The Banjo in the Nineteenth Century, by Gura, Philip F. and James F. Bollman (1999). In particular there was on labeled "A crude instrument as would have been made by a local woodworker". I was aiming for crude. Really. The main thing that I did wrong (historically incorrect) was to use block construction on the rim. I couldn't bend wood and make it stay there if my life depended on it. As I made it out of poplar, the rim was really easy to shape just with rasp, file, and sandpaper. The size and roundness of a tackhead is not as important to get correct because there is no hardware to get it right for, if you get my meaning. This thing is fun to play. It is just one step away from a gourd banjo, but has a deeper tone because of the 13 (plus a little) inch diameter head. It doesn't like humidity, so it's better to play in the winter. I built it because I was going to be attending Midwest Banjo Camp and Bob Carlin was going to have a session called "introduction to minstrel banjo". I finshed it in time and brought it. He ended up not really teaching much, just doing a lecture. I was the only one who brought a more-or-less correct instrument. But not knowing much at the time, I had it tuned to modern pitch (open G). After that class I got Bob Fleshers book & cd with 60 tabbed out tunes from the 19th century banjo tutors. Bringing the instrument down to the proper tuning (the equivelent of "standard C" tuned down 4 steps) just opened up the tone. I so far have only worked out 3 of the 60 tunes.
____________________ Erich -- http://www.ezfolk.com/audio/bands/956/ http://vrteach.org |
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| Posted: Sun Nov 5th, 2006 09:02 pm |
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10th Post |
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Lyle Konigsberg Approved 
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Hi Phil & Erich, I hadn't been keeping up to date on this one, I think because of the subject title. I play a bit, though only a rather little bit, of tenor. Consequently, converting a tenor neck to a 5-string is off the radar for me. But I saw the discussion of reamers for 5th string pegs. For a one or two shot use the StewMac reamer is pricey. I tried all our local tool places, and suprisingly Sears had a (cheap!) reamer. I had to cut the end off of it because it was too narrow, but have since used the reamer to sucessfully install a violin peg for a 5th string peg. The reamer has also come in handy when I had to slightly expand holes for Grover friction pegs.
____________________ ezFolk page: http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1084/ Some Tabs at: http://lylewk.home.comcast.net/ |
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| Posted: Mon Nov 6th, 2006 02:28 am |
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11th Post |
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Philj200 Approved
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I love Sears! Especially there reconditioned power tool table. That's where the resell returned or used tools. I've purchased a belt sander (I use it as a shaper upside down), a 1/2 drill and reciprocating saw from that table...and saved more than half, much more... each time. I'll pop in this week during lunch, they just up the road from my job.
____________________ My MP3 Section: http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1143/ My Myspace area: http://myspace.com/philj200 |
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| Posted: Wed Nov 8th, 2006 10:29 pm |
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12th Post |
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Philj200 Approved
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I should have used a tapering tool. Had some problems. Seems like I overcame them. The attached progress is somewhat outdated by a rainy afternoon. The 5th-string peg is now attached. The 5-th string nut is attached as well. As the photo indicated, a lot of yellow glue, clamps and not enough patience is seeing this through. Next, the cookie tin! ---- This morning I discovered that the collar and the stem of the 5th string machine were missing each other by 1/16th" The machine was a fraction too deeply set. I had to grind the collar down to make the holes meet. Now they do. But it was a nasty surprise. Attachment: Progress-2.gif (Downloaded 42 times) Last edited on Thu Nov 9th, 2006 01:28 pm by Philj200 ____________________ My MP3 Section: http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1143/ My Myspace area: http://myspace.com/philj200 |
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| Posted: Fri Nov 10th, 2006 02:12 am |
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13th Post |
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Philj200 Approved
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Complete, and playable. Some cosmetic touches. And a higher bridge would help. That'll come. But the banjoreo is now a living instrument. Added later: Since this is a 19-fret instrument, I tuned it two frets higher, to open-A. I tried open-G, but the strings seems to rattle and tuning was difficult. Bringing it up a bit helped. Attachment: banjoreo-complete.gif (Downloaded 36 times) Last edited on Fri Nov 10th, 2006 12:40 pm by Philj200 ____________________ My MP3 Section: http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1143/ My Myspace area: http://myspace.com/philj200 |
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| Posted: Fri Nov 10th, 2006 09:55 pm |
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14th Post |
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gerard mcd Approved 
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Phil Looks great! Gonna record on it for us? Gerard
____________________ http://www.EZFolk.com/audio/Gerard_McDermott http://www.CookieTinBanjo.com |
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| Posted: Fri Nov 10th, 2006 10:03 pm |
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15th Post |
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Philj200 Approved
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I certainly will. In the last five minutes I ground down a protruding bolt that was not visible in the JPG. It does look good and sounds okay. I'm not happy with the friction pegs. They don't hold well. I have a set of grovers but they're from a guitar. The are much better (and geared) machines but the esthetics are wrong. I used light guage steel strings because I forgot to order nylon. But I sort of like the sound. Give me an opinion later on. I'll let the strings mellow another day or two before trying to record anything. Thanks for inspiring all this and staying with me. Last edited on Sat Nov 11th, 2006 06:40 pm by Philj200 ____________________ My MP3 Section: http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1143/ My Myspace area: http://myspace.com/philj200 |
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| Posted: Fri Nov 10th, 2006 10:16 pm |
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16th Post |
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banjo brad Super Moderator 
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Sheesh! And all I've got so far are three cookie tins sittin' in the garage waiting for me to start on them! But, then, I'm retired and have no reason to hurry. Guess I'll start looking for some maple to make the neck. Think I will look for a couple of 1x3's - glue them together with the bottom one longer to make the dowel. The headstock will probably be my first bugaboo - I can't remember exactly how I got the angle when I attempted a guitar years ago (never did finish that). I'll try to keep you posted on my slow progress. Brad
____________________ ezFolk Help Brad Prickly Pear Music Banjo Brad's ezFolk page TOTMC |
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| Posted: Fri Nov 10th, 2006 10:44 pm |
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17th Post |
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Philj200 Approved
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It's not a race. (Anymore.) Just kidding. Besides, I had a headstart of the tenor neck just hanging around. I would not attempt to build a guitar without a major upgrade to my workbench I could never jusitify, a major growth in skills and a general infusion of trankquilizers.
____________________ My MP3 Section: http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1143/ My Myspace area: http://myspace.com/philj200 |
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| Posted: Fri Nov 10th, 2006 10:59 pm |
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18th Post |
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Philj200 Approved
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Okay, I'm not thrilled with the tuning machines. But take a look at the attached GIF. The LN is the Vega that fell into my life last spring. It had guitar Grovers as OEM. The pegs I have sitting on my bency are also Grovers but gold plated and a different design. But still geared machines. And I'm a trifle deaf. (Thinking about this.) The tenor neck was made in 1897. It was hard to read the engraving before and harder now, since it was on the truss where I had to cut. But the neck was not being used for generations. Now it has a life. Should I call the LN, Doctor Evil and the banjoreo, Little Me? Nah. Attachment: two-vega.gif (Downloaded 29 times) Last edited on Fri Nov 10th, 2006 11:02 pm by Philj200 ____________________ My MP3 Section: http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1143/ My Myspace area: http://myspace.com/philj200 |
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| Posted: Sat Nov 11th, 2006 01:48 am |
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19th Post |
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banjo brad Super Moderator
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Both nice looking instruments, Philj. Maybe later I'll tell you the story of my guitar-building venture. I think my cookietin banjo will be fretless - I've been wanting to try to play one of those for awhile. I have 3 tins to work with, round, hexagonal, and oblong. Figure I'll try a banjo, a uke and maybe a small guitar. Or 3 banjo's, I don't know - I have to get one done first! Brad
____________________ ezFolk Help Brad Prickly Pear Music Banjo Brad's ezFolk page TOTMC |
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| Posted: Sat Nov 11th, 2006 02:12 am |
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20th Post |
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Philj200 Approved
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" I have to get one done first!" --You only have to things that need to be done. Building instruments is fun. Not compulsion. You'll get to it when you get to it. Now open a new thread and tell us your guitar construction tale.
____________________ My MP3 Section: http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1143/ My Myspace area: http://myspace.com/philj200 |
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