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| Moderated by: Tony Provencher, Richard Hefner |
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| Ashokan Farewell | Rate Topic |
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| Posted: Wed Aug 9th, 2006 02:10 pm |
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1st Post |
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Philj200 Approved 
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A few years ago at a party, a guy showed up with a Dobro (a really Dobro-brand dobro) and an incredible A-5 mandolin. He sang in a fine-fine tenor voice meaning he could get a job with almost any country or bluegrass band in the world. And that's what his ambition was. And it was fulfilled. He played among other things during the evening, Ashokan Farewell on the mandolin. I chorded in back of him on guitar. That song haunted me...as it does most people who hear it. I got a lead line for the tune a while ago and worked out a passable guitar version. Last night, I figured out a banjo solo. I had to take some liberties with the melody which I hope Jay Ungar forgives me for. (I couldn't find the sheet music and recreated the tune from memory.) As soon as I get the time and the nerve, I'll try to post a version. But it's finger picked (without picks) in a rolling eclectic way. I did a lot of single string work alternating thumb and first finger with a touch of frailed chords (that's why I'm not wearing picks) from time to time. It's only a minute or two long...but it is satisfying. Have played it twenty times since last night and it never came out the same way twice. Now I want to bump into that mandolin picker and Farewell this Ashokan.
____________________ My MP3 Section: http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1143/ My Myspace area: http://myspace.com/philj200 |
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| Posted: Wed Aug 9th, 2006 05:03 pm |
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2nd Post |
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Charlie Approved 
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Hi Phil, That is a beautiful tune and I play it on my mandolin a lot, But as I have not ever put it on ezfolk is I believe it is not Public Domain, I wish it were. I took lessons for a while on mandolin and was tought it from my instructor and thats how I found out about the song. If I can find the site where it has Tab, I will let you know. Charlie
____________________ Yesterdays Tomorrow is Today http://www.ezfolk.com/audio/charlesculbertson |
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| Posted: Wed Aug 9th, 2006 06:06 pm |
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3rd Post |
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Philj200 Approved
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Charlie, I'd appreciate it. Copyright issues... I don't know much about them. But if you learn a song by ear, and play it for friends and no money changes hands..how could the owner of a copyright have a beef? No one took money out of his pocket. No one exchanged any money. And no one would have bought a copy of the song if we didn't mess around wit it. At lunch today, two friends and myself went over to a local park and traded songs for an hour. One of the guys knew enough of Ashokan Farewell for us to fake our way through it. The thought of asking the publisher's permission...and sending a check for the permission never entered our mind. If Woody Guthrie were still alive would he insist that This Land is You Land couldn't be played without permission? There would be some long augward silences at the campfire.
____________________ My MP3 Section: http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1143/ My Myspace area: http://myspace.com/philj200 |
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| Posted: Wed Aug 9th, 2006 06:16 pm |
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4th Post |
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Charlie Approved
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Hey Phil, You can play it all you want, But you can not put it here on this site because it would have to be before 1932 to be Public Domain, there has been a lot of disscussion about PD music here for quite a while now, Here is where you can listen to it and also get the tab, It is wrote for Mandolin, but you can click on the number 2 on the right upper side where it says mandolin and it changes to Guitar. http://mandozine.com/music/search_results.php?searchfor=Ashokan+Farewell Hope this helps Charlie
____________________ Yesterdays Tomorrow is Today http://www.ezfolk.com/audio/charlesculbertson |
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| Posted: Wed Aug 9th, 2006 06:25 pm |
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5th Post |
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Philj200 Approved
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Thanks Charlie. Yes, I understand the concept of intellectual property and how copywrite laws protect artists. I haven't posted anything that stuck here yet so haven't faced the problem. I'll check the link next. As I understand it, Ungar wrote the tune to remember the village of Ashokan which was drowned by a TVA project (echo of the flood scene in Oh Brother...). He had no idea how it would be used by Ken Burns in the Civil War series. But if a song was written for an event that happened before 1932 could...never mind. I wouldn't buy the logic either.
____________________ My MP3 Section: http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1143/ My Myspace area: http://myspace.com/philj200 |
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| Posted: Wed Aug 9th, 2006 06:25 pm |
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6th Post |
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Philj200 Approved
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Charlie, Do you need proprietary software for that site? Last edited on Wed Aug 9th, 2006 06:29 pm by Philj200 ____________________ My MP3 Section: http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1143/ My Myspace area: http://myspace.com/philj200 |
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| Posted: Wed Aug 9th, 2006 06:42 pm |
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7th Post |
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Charlie Approved
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Yes, you can down load a free version of it at http://www.tabledit.com/ and then that is all you would need to listen to all music or tab out there. The copy rights thing gets us all confused, but you can play or publish any music that you write and compose or any music that that was writen in 1932 or before. Banjo Brad has been running a daily update on this site this last week, Try to read some of it if you get time, It has shut down a lot of sites like this one just this year.. Charlie
____________________ Yesterdays Tomorrow is Today http://www.ezfolk.com/audio/charlesculbertson |
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| Posted: Wed Aug 9th, 2006 06:47 pm |
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8th Post |
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Richard Hefner Administrator 
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Hey Phil, Charlie missed that date by about 9 years. In order for a song to be public domain it has to have been written before January 1, 1923. There are exceptions but that's a pretty good rule of thumb to go by. Funny what you said about Woody Guthrie. I made that same analogy just a day or two ago in this thread about copyrights... http://www.ezfolk.com/forums/forum7/2203.html Thinking about it though, if Woody would have wanted his songs in the public domain he could have put them there for everybody to use. That goes for everybody else too. It's perfectly acceptable for someone to do that but right off hand I don't know anybody famous who has ever done it (somebody correct me if I'm wrong). If you'll read some of that copyright stuff from the link above you'll see what the problem is with using copyright protected material. It has a way of catching up with a website. 
____________________ Richard Hefner MP3 Page: http://www.ezfolk.com/audio/richardhefner Running Blog: http://old-runner.com |
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| Posted: Wed Aug 9th, 2006 07:00 pm |
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9th Post |
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Charlie Approved
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My goodness, I did miss that date, I knew it was that, Guess I was thinking about the year I was born. Thanks Richard for correcting me Charlie
____________________ Yesterdays Tomorrow is Today http://www.ezfolk.com/audio/charlesculbertson |
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| Posted: Wed Aug 9th, 2006 07:04 pm |
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10th Post |
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Philj200 Approved
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I've seen that site for a while, but until Dusty hit me with the smart stick about getting stuff into the computer, it didn't matter. Of course, getting music from the computer to the web site is tommorow's curriculum.
____________________ My MP3 Section: http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1143/ My Myspace area: http://myspace.com/philj200 |
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| Posted: Wed Aug 9th, 2006 07:16 pm |
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11th Post |
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Charlie Approved
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Hey Phil, we are waiting to hear some of your music, I did what Dusty was telling you and it sure works good now, If only I could play well enought. If you ever wonder if a song can be put no ezfolk, Richard has a pertty good handle on what can go on and what cannot, so just ask and he will look it up for you. Charlie
____________________ Yesterdays Tomorrow is Today http://www.ezfolk.com/audio/charlesculbertson |
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| Posted: Wed Aug 9th, 2006 07:38 pm |
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12th Post |
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Philj200 Approved
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I'm working on it. Okay...let's say I write a song that is not Ashokan Farewell but reminds people of it. Is that song a copywrite violation. In the jazz world it is very common for jazz musicians ...espescially during the be-bop period...to copy a chord progression from a standard or show song because it would ping on the listeners internal radar as a familiar item...but write a new melody. There were, I believe, court cases that established that melody was private property, but chords pre-existed and are PD. Even if they are in a particular order. (If I'm worng, remember I am far from being a lawyer.)
____________________ My MP3 Section: http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1143/ My Myspace area: http://myspace.com/philj200 |
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| Posted: Wed Aug 9th, 2006 07:53 pm |
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13th Post |
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Charlie Approved
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Phil, I don't know if you can or not,, I know Elvis took the tune Aura Lee and made Love me Tender out of it, But Aura Lee was public domain and he had the money that he could have bought it any way. Maybe some one else will read this and help us on it. Charlie
____________________ Yesterdays Tomorrow is Today http://www.ezfolk.com/audio/charlesculbertson |
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| Posted: Wed Aug 9th, 2006 08:12 pm |
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14th Post |
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banjo brad Super Moderator 
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"[...]let's say I write a song that is not Ashokan Farewell but reminds people of it. Is that song a copywrite violation." I think in that case it would probably come down to how much you were making from the song, i.e. CD sales, MTV plays, radio plays, etc., and whether Jay took exception the the 'sound alike-ness' of the tune. Then, it would hinge on his lawyers and the music industry lawyers and their pocketbooks versus you and your lawyer(s) and your pocketbooks. The PD-only/original stuff preference of ezFolk is to keep Richard from getting entangled in this bruhaha and us losing this great forum. An ounce of prevention, et cetera.  When you start posting your stuff here, be sure to visit http://creativecommons.organd consider using their license scheme, unless you decide to go the copyright route.
____________________ ezFolk Help Brad Prickly Pear Music Banjo Brad's ezFolk page TOTMC |
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| Posted: Wed Aug 9th, 2006 09:23 pm |
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15th Post |
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Philj200 Approved
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I tried to post a couple of time maybe a year ago and got totally bamboozled. Is this a standing site that walks people through the process?
____________________ My MP3 Section: http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1143/ My Myspace area: http://myspace.com/philj200 |
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| Posted: Wed Aug 9th, 2006 09:34 pm |
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16th Post |
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theBlackman Approved 
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If the tune is not a nearly direct copy of XYZ, and the lyrics are not nearly verbatum, the fact that your tune reminds me of Jingle Bells, means nothing. Your song may remind me of XYZ but if it is different in lyrics -I mean completely different, even if the feeling or message is the same as XYZ- and the melodic line is not identical, then you have no copyright problem. You wrote a "NEW" song. The emotional response of the beholder, and the memories it triggers do not infringe on CC. The nature of western music is 1-4-5 for chord patterns. So you use a chord progression a line of a song you heard, but change the melody and lyrics, you are home free. The basic, and esoteric, chord progressions are public domain. The melodies are copyrightable. Dusty Last edited on Wed Aug 9th, 2006 09:38 pm by theBlackman ____________________ Let each day start as a blank page for life to write upon. http://ezfolk.com/audio/dusty http://cdbaby.com/all/theblackman http://youtube.com/DustinFLeer |
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| Posted: Wed Aug 9th, 2006 09:35 pm |
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17th Post |
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banjo brad Super Moderator
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Phil- What the site is is a place that will provide you with an html file that you can copy to your information page or into the info box of posted tunes. It declares that you have licensed your work for non-commercial use to any and all takers. There is also a license that will allow you to place a work in the public domain, thus preventing anybody from profiting from it through copyright. You sign up and list your song there. It is a fairly straight forward site, and you should be able to find your way through it fairly easily. Heres a link to how it appears on one of my tunes: http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/5/1877_info.php Brad Last edited on Wed Aug 9th, 2006 09:39 pm by banjo brad ____________________ ezFolk Help Brad Prickly Pear Music Banjo Brad's ezFolk page TOTMC |
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| Posted: Wed Aug 9th, 2006 10:16 pm |
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18th Post |
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Philj200 Approved
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I just downloaded and installed the tabedit software. It works fine. I'll check out the site Brad mentioned later on. I must sound like I just fell off the turnip truck. The Ashokan Farewell duet is very pleasant. Clearly a teaching paradigm. But it reminded me that I just may have written a new piece that uses a lot of the notes that Jay Ungar did. I didn't realize how far I moved the piece. Thanks for you patience guys. (next morning) Now I know how to protect my work. Thanks Brad for the site and the example. And Dusty for encouragement. Now to plan afew hours home (I'm at work) with the phone, dehumidifier and cat turned off. The cludge equipment, banjo and player turned on. IF there an optimum time lenght for a shared piece? I'm not a singer so an instrumental might be short. Last edited on Thu Aug 10th, 2006 01:52 pm by Philj200 ____________________ My MP3 Section: http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1143/ My Myspace area: http://myspace.com/philj200 |
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| Posted: Sat Aug 12th, 2006 11:36 am |
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19th Post |
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Philj200 Approved
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I ran my derived version of the song past Richard, just in case. He thinks my 'homage' was still too close to the original for comfort level. Okay. He also advised me to get more familiar with the recording software. That's his gentlemanly way of saying it wasn't a good recording. (Or a good enough recording.)For which I thank him for his candor and his tact. I'll try again. (Hauling different Ashes, so to speak.)
____________________ My MP3 Section: http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1143/ My Myspace area: http://myspace.com/philj200 |
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