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| Moderated by: Tony Provencher, Richard Hefner | Page: 1 2   |
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| Mixing your music | Rate Topic |
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| Posted: Sat Oct 1st, 2005 08:18 pm |
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1st Post |
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banjo brad Super Moderator 
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Disclaimer: This is not aimed at anybody in particular, or even limited to this site's artists. I was just browsing through some of the new tunes posted, and it occurred to me that this might be a good place to start a discussion on music mixing. So - I think the reason I dislike a lot of the new music, and groups in particular, is the emphasis that seems to be placed on the drums and bass in most mixes. I find that the dominant track in most modern music (by 'modern' I mean 'recent') is placed on putting the drums and bass right up front. I have had this discussion with my buddy regarding his trio, 2 guitars and a bass, and I have even tried to help him set up the mix when he played in a couple of bars in Truckee. When I went to see the Grisman quintet, I couldn't hear the nuances of the music, because the sound man set the rythmn more up front than the other instruments. It just compounds when you have vocals that really should be easily heard, not strained through layers of "Boom-chicka-chicka-clash" and "Thump-Thump-Thump". Just my opinion, what is your feeling in this regard?  Keep on pickin'Brad ps. When my buddy's bassist used an acoustic bass, it did alliviate the problem some. Last edited on Sun Oct 2nd, 2005 02:10 am by banjo brad ____________________ ezFolk Help Brad Prickly Pear Music Banjo Brad's ezFolk page TOTMC |
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| Posted: Sat Oct 1st, 2005 11:48 pm |
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2nd Post |
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James Connolly Approved 
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Hey Brad, that is a great post with a lot of questions to be answered. I also wish to know from more experienced members what is the best way of doing stuff as regards the recording ? I use the "Audacity" program and still learning all the buttons on there ! What to do first ? In what order ? Is there a sequence to lay out the tracks ?  With me, it's all trial n error (and I'm sure it shows) but would sure appreciate any input and info from other membes that have been doing this for a while, what systems they use, etc. Thanks for any help, James C 
____________________ James (Seamus) Connolly http://ezfolk.com/audio/jamesconnolly http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/422/popmp3.php http://www.myspace.com/celticseamus |
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| Posted: Sun Oct 2nd, 2005 02:09 am |
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3rd Post |
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banjo brad Super Moderator
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James- When I downloaded the n-track, it had a manual that had a tutorial, "Your first recording" that was a lot of help. Maybe Audacity has a similar chapter? I also bought the book: "The Complete Idiot's Guide to Home Recording". It has a lot of good information in it, but relies heavily on you downloading the Pro Tools free program, which would not install on my computer due to harddrive access incompatability. There is a lot of good information in it, though. Keep on pickin'Brad
____________________ ezFolk Help Brad Prickly Pear Music Banjo Brad's ezFolk page TOTMC |
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| Posted: Sun Oct 2nd, 2005 02:18 am |
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4th Post |
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Rex Approved
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Back when I played with a band our bass player stuck a mic on his bass (1950s acoustic Kay) but we were getting far too much bass. All the other instruments (two guitars, banjo, dobro, and mandolin) were on mics also. We unplugged the bass and the other mics picked up enough of it that we never needed to mic it again. We played for 6 years like that. Also had 3 female singers, great harmony. We were always carefull not to drown out the vocals. I agree with you Brad, some of "todays" music is too heavy on the bass and drums, but maybe that's what todays listener wants?
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| Posted: Sun Oct 2nd, 2005 06:04 pm |
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5th Post |
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banjo brad Super Moderator
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They must, I keep hearing their "music" from 6 cars away!  Keep on pickin'Brad
____________________ ezFolk Help Brad Prickly Pear Music Banjo Brad's ezFolk page TOTMC |
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| Posted: Sun Oct 2nd, 2005 06:17 pm |
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6th Post |
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HowlinHobbit Approved 
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When you play at a club that has their own sound guy the mix will be heavy on bass/drums (i.e. the rhythm section) because the club wants... a)to make you get up and shake your butt so that... b)you become hot, sweaty and thirsty so that... c)you buy more drinks I like enough bass and drums in a track to keep the drive going but I have noticed in a lot of live situations, especially with a "younger" band, you get this wall of sound with the vocalist screaming away (you can see this) but his/her vocals are all but drowned. There are some instances where you find out what the lame lyrics are and are just as happy though. HH
____________________ Howlin' Hobbit Got Uke? MySpace ezFolk UkeLand |
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| Posted: Sun Oct 2nd, 2005 09:01 pm |
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7th Post |
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banjo brad Super Moderator
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I can see why the clubs might like that stuff - it's one reason I don't attend concerts or most other live events (the other, is this silly idea I have that when I go to hear somebody, I want to hear what I paid good money to hear, not the screaming of the crowd over the entire performance). If I want to hear mainly drums, I'd go to one of the Japanese Drumming concerts (Taikedo, or something - a real big thing several years ago). HH said: "I like enough bass and drums in a track to keep the drive going"" . Yeah, but my point is that the popular definition of 'enough' is more than is required - it could be put a little farther back in the mix (rythmn has always been more background to me than the melody and/or words). Keep on pickin'Brad
____________________ ezFolk Help Brad Prickly Pear Music Banjo Brad's ezFolk page TOTMC |
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| Posted: Mon Oct 3rd, 2005 09:07 pm |
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8th Post |
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Charlie Approved 
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The group I play with, The bass players job is for the rhythm of the band, not so much for the audence, as we play for more older folks as I am also and our ears just wants take loud booming sounds. But I guess if we were 18 again we could handle it. Charlie 
____________________ Yesterdays Tomorrow is Today http://www.ezfolk.com/audio/charlesculbertson |
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| Posted: Mon Oct 3rd, 2005 11:50 pm |
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9th Post |
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banjo brad Super Moderator
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I never particularly cared for it when I was 18! Keep on pickin' Brad
____________________ ezFolk Help Brad Prickly Pear Music Banjo Brad's ezFolk page TOTMC |
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| Posted: Thu Oct 6th, 2005 08:31 pm |
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10th Post |
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DrGalacticFloss Approved 
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this post mostly seems to deal with musical tastes, however i will reiterate.... what's the use of having a singer if they are drowned out in the mix?
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| Posted: Fri Oct 7th, 2005 02:18 am |
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11th Post |
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madog99 Approved 
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I have to jump in here as I tend to prefer stuff on the bassier side . I am drawn toward the sound of gibson electrics vs fenders and on the acoustic side martins/gibsons vs Taylors ( not dissing Taylors , just what I'm drawn toward) And I love the big drum sound on rock recordings , Kenny Arrnoff on all those Mellencamp recordings for example . A band that has that sound really grabs me . Look at all those Motown recordings or the great reggea records before rap . That being said the sound of a Martin D28 or a J45 is something from above . Just my take on it . John
____________________ http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/328/ |
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| Posted: Fri Oct 7th, 2005 02:36 am |
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12th Post |
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madog99 Approved
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Brad I forgot to mention , if you are listenting on lo-fi on PC speakers with a little sub (as I am ) , the sound is pretty cruddy compared to a decent stereo rig. I find the bass is really over powering on some stuff on my PC. But on the big rig sounds great . Thats one of the tests of a good system , it's ability to handle low frequency sounds , not like the car subwoofers you can hear coming down the road at ya 
____________________ http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/328/ |
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| Posted: Fri Oct 7th, 2005 04:27 pm |
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13th Post |
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banjo brad Super Moderator
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Yeah- Everybody has their own tastes otherwise the world would be a dull drab grey all the time! I (to paraphrase Spock) have never, and always will not care for much bass in my music  Personal, I know, but live or recorded, first rate Hi Fidelity system (remember the 60's and 70's rage on component stereos?) or crummy ear buds, it drives me crazy if it is a leading voice, not a sub-voice. I think that is one of the reasons I prefer acoustic over electric, mic over plug-in, and the oldtime bands. I have been to barn dances where the guitar supplied all the bass needed to the band (fiddle, banjo, mandolin and guitar). The beat was there, the dancers were happy, and the band played on  Keep on pickin'Brad Last edited on Fri Oct 7th, 2005 04:29 pm by banjo brad ____________________ ezFolk Help Brad Prickly Pear Music Banjo Brad's ezFolk page TOTMC |
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| Posted: Wed Oct 12th, 2005 07:29 pm |
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14th Post |
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Will Approved 
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Brad: I prefer acoustic music to electronic music, and I agree with you that bass and drums should not overpower the vocals and other instruments. If an electric bass is used, the vocal/instrument mikes will usually pick up enough bass to be heard over PA and on a recording. Recording a bass or bass amp with a mike will usually sound too boomy. "Mixing" is usually mentioned in the context of multi-track recording, which I've never done. I've had many years of experience with 2-track stereo recording, however, and "mixing" can be done to a degree by ensuring that the band instruments and vocals (lead vs. harmony) have a degree of channel separation that will allow some volume re-balancing during the editing process. Here are some of the techniques that I've used to make good sounding recordings. Over 95% of Loose Change & Friends' recordings are live performances, and we don't have the luxury of dragging along and using a computer-based recording system in the field. (I use computer software for "mixing" and for producing finished tracks for CD's/MP3s.) Our field recording system is a Sony minidisc recorder plugged directly into our PA (Fender Passport Amp with 2 mixers). Most of our instruments, except for banjo and mandolin which are miked, are recorded with transducers (soundhole type for guitars, disc type for uke/banjo uke). Our upright bass player has a transducer and a small amp (for his own monitoring), and he runs a line from his amp into our mixer. We are limited to 2 stereo tracks, so we set the "pan" (panoramic) balance controls on the PA amp so that one channel is fed mostly to the left channel, and the other to mostly the right channel. On the left channel is the lead vocal, banjo, mandolin, and guitar. On the right channel are the harmony vocals, bass, and whatever instrument I'm playing for that song (autoharp, 12-string guitar, uke, etc.). When I input the minidisc recording into my computer, I manually re-balance the volume of the left and right channels to get a good "mix" when creating the WAV file. In practice, I find it easier to reduce the volume of an instrument that is too loud than to boost one that is too quiet. (If my instruments are too quiet, I sometimes have to re-dub my instrument parts. ) Using Cakewalk, I manually cut the recording into separate tracks, using a tool that displays the recording as an oscillioscope wave form, which allows you to do razor sharp edits. I then use another tool to fade out the tracks. If a song/tune had a rough or uneven start, I'll often use a fade-in. For other effects and editing, I use Audio Cleaning Lab. The next step is to filter out noise, hiss, and hum. (Most recording software has a number of built-in filters. I prefer to set the levels manually, however.) When I later apply digital effects to the .WAV files, I use an electronic effect in Audio Cleaning Lab to adjust the apparent stereo image, which has the effect of bringing the vocals up front (where we like them). Then, I apply some digital reverb, and I also use a "de-esser" filter which takes out the "popping" sounds from sibilant ("S" and "P" sounds) vocals. A 3-band compressor effect can also selective boost or cut the apparent loudness of bass, midrange, and treble, without having to overuse frequence equalization (EQ). Last edited on Wed Oct 12th, 2005 07:30 pm by Will ____________________ Will http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/297/ Loose Change & Friends http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/245/ http://loosechangeandfriends.com The Earth Tones http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/337/ A Bunch Of Coconuts http://abunchofcoconuts.com |
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| Posted: Wed Oct 12th, 2005 10:56 pm |
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15th Post |
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banjo brad Super Moderator
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Will: Thanks for the lesson, you are certainly much farther along the learning curve than I am when it comes to recording stuff. I am attempting to work my way through a complete idiot's guide to home recording, book, and am constantly fighting the software (pro tools free). When I need to record something, I pull up n-Track, hit record, and do it. Then I have done some compression, reverb and panning. That's about it, and it is, really, more than I often feel like doing. Most often I just run a softknee compression/noise gate on the master track and let it go at that. I have been unable to cut and patch sections, some related to the mixing process, most related to my not being able to replicate the lead-in/lead-out areas of the overdub.  Keep on pickin'Brad
____________________ ezFolk Help Brad Prickly Pear Music Banjo Brad's ezFolk page TOTMC |
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| Posted: Wed Oct 12th, 2005 11:34 pm |
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16th Post |
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1four5 Approved 
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I'm with you Brad! I haven't figured out 90% of what cakewalk can do. I basically turn it on an play. I do add vocals on another track and, and sometimes some lead on another. I recently figured out how to put a touch of reverb on my crappy voice, so now I can get the "crappy voice singing in the shower" sound. I've never altered the sound of my instruments, but I did figure out how to cut and paste parts together when needed. I kind of like the raw "what I play is what you get" aspect. When the B-1's get together, we just record on a little open air recorder and chincy little mic...turn it on and play, and however it comes out is what you get. Learning and having fun is the priority now...maybe someday we'll get more serious about some good recording equipment and recordings. As for drums and bass...that can change with mood for me. I'm loving country and bluegrass music without drums, and really loving playing acoustic music with Tim on electric bass. However, I'm a metelhead from the late 70's...sometimes, especially after work...I can be heard with Molly Hatchett cranked as loud as my car's stock radio will go.  These moods only last a few minutes though, and strangely enough, I don't have the desire at all to play that kind of stuff. I hate to admit it, but I'm starting to really dig playing some of CMac's faster John Denver songs on banjo...as well as some real bluegrassy gospel the guys like. I've never played with a live drummer before. Tried the electric drum thing...didn't like it...it's like no matter what you do, they still sound like electric drums.
____________________ These are the good times! |
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| Posted: Wed Oct 12th, 2005 11:40 pm |
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17th Post |
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madog99 Approved
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Holy cow Will ! Pretty daunting sounding , I guess that's why they call the guy that pushes the buttons the recording "engineer " . I thought I was pretty hot setting up a 3rd mic in the background ! Thanks for the info . John
____________________ http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/328/ |
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| Posted: Thu Oct 13th, 2005 07:38 pm |
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18th Post |
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ThirdRatePoet Approved 
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I know exactly where this topic is coming from - modern 'pop' music is largely a compressed bass heavy slop. I find some of it pretty offensive on the ear, quite frankly! But there's no reason not to use some of the 'goodies' that recent advances in recording have given us - the cheap software, the budget recording mics, and the ability to make your tunes sound just as you would like them (even if it's the sound of some untreated acoustic instruments mixing and clashing as only they can, really). Even more important is where to put things in the mix - for me it's always the voice in the middle, audible, but not overpowering, and eveything else arranged like a 'virtual' band left and right in the 180 stereo pan. And the wonder of the effective EQ...the great thing is that for most (if not all) acoustic music, you only need about 2 or 3 functions in a software package or on a digital recorder to mix a good sound - it's really what you use to record it with that matters... Sorry, went on a bit more than I meant to - but it's something I've given a lot of time and 'trial and error' to!! (I'm sure I'm not alone in this!) Dan
____________________ ezFolk My Website CDBaby |
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| Posted: Sat Oct 15th, 2005 01:59 am |
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19th Post |
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banjo brad Super Moderator
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Yup- But I'm still kinda stuck with one mic and one (sometimes 2) tracks. Still, that's the style I really prefer, with one performer pickin' 'n singin' (then, when needed, I can add the second backup track). Keep on pickin'Brad
____________________ ezFolk Help Brad Prickly Pear Music Banjo Brad's ezFolk page TOTMC |
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| Posted: Fri Mar 9th, 2007 06:26 pm |
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20th Post |
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tindle Approved
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I've played in rock bands since the early '60's. If there's one thing that drives me nuts it's too busy Bass, too much Bass volume and too busy/loud Drummers. The rhythm section (Bass/Drums/Percussion) are back line instruments, and these players need to work together and know their place in the live mix. They are there to drive the rhythm of the music, hold the timing, signal changes in the meter and mood, accentuate 'stops' and 'starts', and to provide some 'fill' and bottom end. Too many Bassists are frustrated lead players, too many Drummers are Keith Moon(The Who) and Ginger Baker (Cream) wannabe's. I always think that the best guide is to have a rhythm section that is missed if it isn't there, but is otherwise unobtrusive, just loud enough and noticeable to be appreciated. Trouble is, most don't understand that you don't have to dominate to be appreciated. Those with a touch of class do. A band is several people playing together, each member playing with empathy for the others. When that happens and a good balance results, how much easier it is to play well individually and produce a good clear balanced sound and performance, and that is to everyone's benefit. My three cents. (Hope my lot are listening! You listening, you guys! ) George http://inzanecountry.co.uk
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