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| Moderated by: Richard Hefner | Page:   1 2 3   |
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| Does Price equal quality? - Beginner Questions - Ukulele - Ukulele - ezFolk Forums | |||||||||||||||
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sano Approved 
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Speaking of plastic, a mint (yes, it was absolutely mint with original tag) 1950 Maccaferri Islander sold on ebay from Vancouver for $104 recently. I'm sorry I stopped bidding too early on it, but I figured it would go through the roof. It didn't, and someone else got a very good bargain. MGM recently had a concert Kala solid spruce top for I think $140 with case. There's a Lanikai concert spruce solidtop that can be had for $120. A spruce solidtop sop Amigo can be had for 1/3 that. There are bargains around. No need to spend too much, agreed. I'd be wary of advising a fellow beginner to spend hundreds on a first instrument, unless she/he has deep pockets. Last edited on Tue Jun 17th, 2008 07:55 am by sano ____________________ sano |
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PJ Approved
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I'm not even looking at Ebay these days. I'm diligently working my 12 step program for UAS. Been clean for two months. Just kidding, of course, but if I were in a 12 step program, I'd make bumper stickers that said, "It ain't the car, it's the driver".
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ichadwick Approved 
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Price is usually co-related with quality if for nothing more than the simple fact that good materials, labour-intensive quality control and a good workforce all cost more than poor materials, slipshod quality control and an underpaid workforce. That being said, there are often bargains to be had. Some new companies deliberately under-price their products in order to garner initial market share, others to be competitive. As a consumer society, we have been led to believe that low price is the key element in much of our purchasing decisions. In reality, it should be last of a long list of criteria, but we've been bamboozled by aggressive advertising campaigns from chains like Wal-Mart into believing that low price is the critical factor. So much so that we'll eagerly buy crap that breaks or gets thrown out because we think we got a deal, when we could have paid a little more and owned something of quality. Look at those displays of bargain-priced items at the entrance to the big-box store. Cheap junk meant to catch your eye when you walk in, or head to the cash register. We have stores full of Chinese-made products - much it it low quality - while factories in the USA and Canada are closing. We are willing to lose local jobs and cripple our own economies in order to pay less at the cash register. But those lower prices are usually co-esxistent with poor materials, low to no quality control and an underpaid workforce that may even include child labour or indentured labour. I don't look for bargains because it's a false economy. I look first for what I would like to own and then determine if I can afford to buy it. If not, I will wait. I look at the label to see where a product is from. That tells me a lot about the quality. As a habit I try to buy goods made in North America, and Europe first, simply to support those economies against the ravages of the big-box depradations. I also try to buy in small, local stores first before I buy in chains and big-box outlets. I can't always buy local, or American/Canadian made, but I think it's worth the effort to do so.
____________________ Ian ------------------------------------------- Ukulele reviews: http://www.ianchadwick.com/essays/ukuleles.htm Harmonica reviews: http://www.ianchadwick.com/essays/harmonicas.htm |
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sano Approved
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Hear Hear! I agree! I trust you weren't inferring otherwise (insert smiley*). I'm not a WalMarter either and I always look for quality over price. Always. Always. Always! Quality for me includes design and workmanship, and these are critical considerations in everything I build, repair, innovate and improvise (and I do this much more than I shop). I don't have that much crap around my home; I don't buy it because it's ugly, poorly designed and it breaks. Most crap can't be recycled and I hate putting crap out for the landfill. In fact, I don't do it. I don't buy it in the first place. But not everything made in N. America is good. There's a lot of Canadian and American made crap too. The auto industry here isn't dying because of unfair trade practices or Japanese-made crap. They make better cars in Japan. Auto workers there are better looked after, and as with the population in general, I think they're happier and healthier. Japanese industry is more innovative, much more is put into R&D, and the workforce is better trained. That's not the fault of the N. American worker. They have nothing at all to say about it, unlike in Japan. GM and Ford don't respect their workers. It's hard to generalize on this topic, and we risk polarizing ourselves around the far ends of our positions when in fact we both agree on the essential thing, that quality counts. Buy the best you can afford. Yes, of course. For the record, I have a 95 Chevy S10 and an 02 Neon. I can't afford to upgrade to better quality (ie imports). If I could I would likely buy Japanese or European. I'm not "unpatriotic", but I can't find better N. American made alternatives. The "big 3" don't make a small, fuel-efficient light truck. Period. The Japanese do, but they are restricted for sale in Canada (and one would be amazed to learn the range of fuel-efficient light vehicles that are restricted for import here; it's staggering). As you know, the streets of Europe also look very different from the streets here. Why? It sure ain't because of Canadian innovation or quality control. I am very concerned about the globalized economy. Energy costs may yet bring a lot of jobs back to our shores. I only hope that it doesn't lead us back to the stone age when even our refrigerators had tail-fins. By the way, one 'uk that I recommended, the Amigo, is made in Romania, not China. *and by the way everyone, WalMart doesn't own this  logo, so please don't let them appropriate it. Keep using it!
____________________ sano |
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sano Approved
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Having helped drive this thread right off the road, I'll try now to help steer it back! I've just received my TANGI solid koa soprano from MGM. It's beautiful. I guess it's made in Vietnam, though I think some Tangis are still made in Hawaii (Tangi's house secret?). By all sounds and appearance, it is a quality-made instrument nevertheless. It has a flawless finish and good intonation to my ear. I think I'm going to love this. It will partner well with my Korean-made Applause UAE-20, and also my Chinese-made Kala sprucetop tenor (which I'm waiting for as I write). I don't disagree with your above point, Ian. I wish there were affordable Canadian-made 'uks, but I don't know of any that are affordable to me. And I don't want to save up for a few years either, as I'm only getting older. Besides, I won't spend too much for an 'uk because I'm only a novice. But, y' know, I've been tossing aboot the idea of making my own, and your posting motivates me even more. I'd like to even use Canadian wood. Maybe more of us should make our own!
____________________ sano |
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PJ Approved
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If we made our own ukuleles, I'd never own a decent instrument, and I do like quality in my musical instruments. It seems that whenever something is labeled as a starter instrument, it is generally poor quality. Beginners need a playable good sounding instrument as much as anyone else. Struggling to learn new skills on something that won't stay in tune, or has impossible high action, or just plain poor sound discourages future players. My problem is that I think I'll be a better player if I own another ukulele. I know this is not a rational thought, but my buying habits are motivated by emotion, not reason. Like a gambler, I go for the "high" of the purchase. Later there's regret, because it wasn't something I needed. By all the UAS jokes I hear, I don't think I'm the only one with this syndrome. Maybe we need a forum for recovering compulsive instrument buyers.
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hrlarson Approved 
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A quality uke cost more, ofcourse. But high price does not equal quality. Let your ears and your heart decide weather a uke sounds good, not the price tag. My first ukulele was a cheapo Mahalo soprano ($30 + $15 for Aquila strings). I now have a vintage P'Mico with Aqulias, that a friend restored and set up for me and which cost me less than $200. When I started playing ukulele everyone I met in the ukulele community had the Mahalo as their hate uke. I couldn't understand why. It intonates darn well. It sounds good. It never gets out of tune. Many of the other ukulele players had instruments in the $100-$200 range that sounded like crap. Intonation failed well before the 12th fret. I now played the uke for about 10 months and I am getting more and more serious about it. I really love to play. My desire for numerous expensive ukuleles has faded, but I would like some day to get a more exclusive instrument. Right now my eyes are on a custom DaSilva soprano (yeah, dream on!). So this is my conclusion. Interested in starting with the uke: buy a Mahalo or other cheap instrument that you tried and you like. Get a new set of strings, any brand will be a hundred times better than the ones that came with the uke. If you get serious about playing the uke you might want to a more expensive instrument, just because you crave it. But seriously, skip the midrange. It will only cost more, and not necessarily sound better. Edit: This applies to soprano ukuleles, that are what I know of. Tenors and the like does not usually have the same intonation problems as many sopranos do. Last edited on Sat Jun 14th, 2008 09:14 pm by hrlarson ____________________ I'm not addicted. I can stop playing anytime I want. |
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hrlarson Approved
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I can't help to agitate a little. The discussion about instruments / price range / quality pops up here and there, the ukulele community is no exception. Members of this community are a mix of newbies, hobbyist, damn near professionals and actual pros. The amount of self proclaimed experts are as always legio, myself included. But what really bugs me is that so many take the easy way out to look good; that is to advocate for pricey instruments. And let's face it: if you pay fifteen hundred bucks you are more likely to get something that sounds and looks better than the average. Then again too many diz instruments just because they didn't cost a fortune. This would be a valid standpoint if the world acted according to mathematical and logical statements. But this is just not true. You don't always get what you pay for, sometimes you get a lot more, sometimes not close to what you payed for. Taking sides with fancy brands to look like an expert is just too easy to be taken seriously.
____________________ I'm not addicted. I can stop playing anytime I want. |
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ichadwick Approved
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hrlarson wrote: But what really bugs me is that so many take the easy way out to look good; that is to advocate for pricey instruments. <snip> I don't advocate any brand, and am personally suspicious that Company A can produce a beautiful product that plays well and sounds good for $300 when Company B produces a near-identical instrument for double or triple or even higher that cost. Yet upon inspection of the two, one can't find an extra $300-$600 or more worth of quality in it. So we agree there, at least somewhat. But I'll reiterate: good materials, good labour and good quality control are not inexpensive. The cost more than cheap resources, and the difference gets passed along to the consumer. How much that gets marked up is an entirely different issue. That $1,500 or $2,000 uke may be a $300 uke with a HUGE mark-up for the name. I think you will agree that a $30 uke is generally not as good as a $300 uke. Is there ten times the value in the $300 uke? Maybe. Depends on how serious you are about your music and how much you like to play either one. It's a status thing, of course. Telling someone you own a $2,000 uke sure makes their eyes widen more than if you tell them you have a $30 uke. (In my case, it would make my wife's eyes bulge out as she reached for the shears to remove some of my most treasured body parts.) But some people are willing to pay for status when it's not necessarily reflected in inherent quality or usefulness. Can a Rolex really tell better time than a Timex? I think you can find excellent quality in ukuleles from $100 up. Lower than that and I suggest that the quality of the resources to build it will be thin in some areas, although there may yet be bargains to be found. I would never advocate someone spend $500, much less $1,500 or more when a $200 or $300 product will do.
____________________ Ian ------------------------------------------- Ukulele reviews: http://www.ianchadwick.com/essays/ukuleles.htm Harmonica reviews: http://www.ianchadwick.com/essays/harmonicas.htm |
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Urmilla Approved
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"Maybe we need a forum for recovering compulsive instrument buyers." I'm a compulsive instrument buyer, too. But I purchased different instruments: violin, viola, flute, ukulele, guitar, guitalele, keyboard, and only one of each. But still I haven't decided which instrument will I play more seriously. I like all of them, except the keyboard. Now, I think it will be the classical guitar. I have a guitar (Valencia) which now costs $60 and I'm copletely satisfied with it. It is not out of tune and it sounds good. I lent this guitar to my friend (who attended guitar classes for 10 years), and he played on this guitar for a year without complaining. He liked my guitar more than his own one. This was not the case with my first violin (inherited from my grandfather). I couldn't convince my parents to buy another one. So, I stopped attending violin classes at age 15. Five years later, I got another old violin (not too expensive). I'm completely satisfied with it. One of my frieds bought a violin for $ 5000, but for me my violin is better.
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hrlarson Approved
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Then again someone argued that most chinese instruments are made with more handcraft (cheap labour) and less machinery than say Martins. Still most people would say that Martins are the result of handcraft and chinese instruments are made in a factory. I didn't mean to say that all expensive instruments are over priced and all budget instruments are money well spent. All I am saying is let your ears and your heart decide, try the uke before you buy it. If you like it - go for it! In my experience - and again I am talking sopranos here - instruments in the $100-200 range are not necessarily an upgrade in quality. They might be, but the price tag is no guarantie. Also consider the kind of music you are going to play on your uke. Do you strum exclusively or play fingerpicking? Do you play high up the fretboard or do you stay on the first five frets? If you try a uke and like the sound it makes, don't let anyone talk you in to making an "upgrade" you didn't ask for. Last edited on Sat Jun 14th, 2008 10:38 pm by hrlarson ____________________ I'm not addicted. I can stop playing anytime I want. |
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Neal Approved 
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I would agree that price does not equal quality, look at the Martin SO. However, frequently a new player will play a 2000$ instrument, and compare it to his own and decide that it's just not worth it. At that stage of his musical developement, it's not. No experience, no ear, no hands yet. There are subtleties and nuance to some instruments that someone green just won't get. After a time, when one gets a little more serious about their chosen istrument, you'll pick up these little things and decide that the Mahalo, while ok to keep in the car for a quick practice, doesn't quite cut it for a practice session, and most definately wouldn't cut it for a live performance or recital. So yeah, sometimes it's the Rolex syndrome with people. Gotta have the best, or what they perceive is the best, and they really don't know. Sometimes it's the subtle things. However, in defense of the Rolex, it keeps time well, doesn't lose it's value, and it's something you can pass down to your grandson, so there's heeps of value in that. I do not own a Rolex.
____________________ http://ezfolk.com/audio/NealPaisley http://www.youtube.com/nealpaisley http://www.myspace.com/nealpaisley |
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hrlarson Approved
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Neal wrote:There are subtleties and nuance to some instruments that someone green just won't get. After a time, when one gets a little more serious about their chosen istrument, you'll pick up these little things /.../ I agree. I just agitate against those who say "if you gonna start playing ukulele invest in a real instrument instead of buying a cheap one". I would rather say invest in a decent set of strings. When things get more serious, when you find that life is too short to do anything except playing the ukulele, then buy that $2.000 instrument. Or don't. I just cannot see why anyone should put up that extra buck when starting with an instrument, especially when you can get decent ones for next to nothing. I haven't heard anything that was worth the extra money if the uke cost anything less than say $600-700. A beginner should reach for a playable instrument. Not a fancy one. Unless, ofcourse, you can spare that money. But whenever someone asks "what should I get" they usually mean "how much MUST I pay".
____________________ I'm not addicted. I can stop playing anytime I want. |
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Neal Approved
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Double post.... Last edited on Sun Jun 15th, 2008 12:06 am by Neal ____________________ http://ezfolk.com/audio/NealPaisley http://www.youtube.com/nealpaisley http://www.myspace.com/nealpaisley |
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Neal Approved
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I've never played one of those decent ones for next to nothing. I've played a lot of ukes. Not saying you have to spend x dollars on a uke, I'm sure there are some that are serviceable for cheap, but I've played a lot of cheap ones, under 100$ and still haven't seen one I'd play at home. I have not played every cheap one though, so... If one just wants to play in the first position, and learn major chords, a few 7ths, and haved a bit of fun, or keep it in the boat for fishing, fine with the cheapos. But if you take the music seriously, and intend to learn the instrument, a 30 dollar uke won't cut it in a very short while. They're out there, I'm sure. It's funny though, if the question came up to purchase a guitar, you would find no one in their right mind offering that a 30 dollar guitar is fine for a beginner. Guitar construction is no different that uke construction. There are cheap ones and there are expensive ones. The dollar amount is the same for a decent guitar as a uke, as a general rule of thumb. Last edited on Sun Jun 15th, 2008 01:02 am by Neal ____________________ http://ezfolk.com/audio/NealPaisley http://www.youtube.com/nealpaisley http://www.myspace.com/nealpaisley |
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sano Approved
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This is an interesting discussion, with so many paths to take. I find little to disagree with here. Very different perspectives though. There seems to be general agreement that one should buy the best one can afford and that cost is not the most accurate indicator of quality. The ethical and economic discussions aside, I don't think the country of origin can say everything about quality. I recently saw online a fine-looking Chinese-made archtop guitar, a Devlin Continental King. I have a real fondness for this style and the music it makes, but I could never afford or justify buying a D'Angelico or Gibson. But from the pictures and description, the Devlin sounds like it might be worth $550, and maybe it would suit my skill level just fine: Solid spruce top, Flame maple back and sides, Rosewood fingerboard 20 nickel silver frets, 25.5 scale length, Tune-o-matic Bridge with ebony footer and ebony tailpiece, Grover machine heads, Gold hardware, Beautiful high gloss antique sunburst finish, 1 mini hum-bucker pickup with 1 volume control ΒΌ' input mounted on side. Maybe it's worth the money. I don't know. I posted this question elsewhere on ezfolk but got no feedback. Should I hold out a few years and buy a D'Angelico? I don't think so. For all I know, it may be less affordable for me than now! But I was in the liquor store this afternoon (our LCBO) to buy some beer. Did I buy the cheapest? No, I didn't buy Coors or Molson. But I did buy the cheapest and 2nd cheapest German Pilsner I could find. I don't think shopping for quality is a zero-sum proposition. Spending extra $s for the very best, even if I can afford it is not going to necessarily make me happier. On the other hand, I don't go into a restaurant to order the cheapest thing on the menu either.
____________________ sano |
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Neal Approved
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Man! Those Chinese. Making some nice stuff. I have a Guild GAD 30R. Saw the sticker inside "made in China" and put it away like it had cooties. Bought it the next day. Also have one of the Epiphone Masterbilt AJ-500RC, MIC. All I can say is price/value ratio is huge.
____________________ http://ezfolk.com/audio/NealPaisley http://www.youtube.com/nealpaisley http://www.myspace.com/nealpaisley |
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Yoik Approved 
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Well, the only experience on the ukulele I can claim is the decision making process of buying a first one. It's a relatively recent event for me so my perceptions are not colored by time or any knowledge of a better Uke. My deliberative process was heavily influenced by my habit of trying to realistically justify any hobby expenditures. I made the decision about 6 weeks ago to try to learn the ukulele, and the first thing I did was go on Amazon and order the cheapest one that had fairly good reviews. Cost $24 and shipped fairly quickly. Now, after about two weeks of plunking away at it, I know that my big ham shaped hands can fit the fretboard, that my fingers need toughening up, and that I can easily learn how to play at a pleasurable level. I also know I would probably be happier with a better quality concert or tenor, and that I want to make one myself. But what I think I will do is spend a couple hundred on a nicer one since the main thing I found out is that I will probably continue playing it. So my potential $300 Ukulele won't end up in the back of the closet. Considering the amount of time and gas I saved driving all around Vermont and New Hampshire to try to learn those same things in the few and far between music shops, it's a bargain. I'll probably keep the $24 one, because it's cute and serviceable. Yes, I notice that the pitch is off a considerable amount from about the fifth fret on down, and I will probably get it some better strings, but it has already earned it's keep in my house.
____________________ __Ukulele Villian__ My other instrument is a pipe My homemade ceramic pipes A forum about simple flutes |
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sano Approved
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That Epiphone's a fine looking guitar. I've got no complaints with my Korean-made Casino. Neal, if you're ever inclined to google that Continental King or check it on ebay, I'd be interested in your initial reaction. It's just a curiosity thing at this point. I can buy an Epiphone Joe Pass II Emperor for about the same money, or for a couple hundred more a Broadway, and Epiphone's a known entity. I'm not in a hurry to buy another guitar anyway as the ukulele's getting all my attention now.
____________________ sano |
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