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| Moderated by: Richard Hefner | Page: 1 2   |
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| Fretboard Grooves - Is there a Fix? - General Guitar - Guitar - ezFolk Forums | |||||||||||||||
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SmallHop Approved 
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Help?  I have a 40+ year-old Harmony tenor guitar. It's the guitar I first began playing many years ago (~25 years ago). One thing I didn't realize back then, to my dismay now, is the importance of keeping my fretting finger nails clipped. I have some serious grooves (more like craters!) low on the fretboard, from fretting common chords like C, G, & D. (I had it tuned Chicago tuning; DGBE.) I'd like to fill & smooth these out somehow? With grooves, fretting these can easily go sharp. Has anyone else had/have this problem? If so, how did you resolve it? Is there special wood filler for this, something that adheres super well & sets up super hard? I've done a lot of web searching,  & just can't don't see this problem even presented much, let alone addressed. Any insights is appreciated. Thx!SmallHop 
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Philj200 Approved 
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As an amatuer luthier I would strongly advice against anything that would set up hard. I assume that the wear on your fret board is interfering with your play. That is the only reason to attempt a fix. These are the paths I would consider: 1. Have a qualified person install a new fret board. 2. Remove the frets (carefully). Mill the fret board down. The fret marking will probably still be visible, using a fret saw or equiviilent, replace the grooves, tap the frets (or new frets) back in. Dress the fret ends. Some bridge work might be necessary. You might want to make the position of the frets on both sides of the neck before starting this procedure. 2a. Same thing, but don't remove the frets. This is harder and riskier than it sounds. 3. Determine what kind of wood the fretboard is made of, get some (StewMac or a specialy lumber yard). Reduce enough of the wood to fine saw dust. Mix with Wellbond (or any quality yellow wood glue). Experiment first. The gumlike mixture dries fast. Press into place. Allow to dry. With fine sandpaper, dress the repair. Two layers is better and more controallable than one thick layer. Three layers are better then two, and stronger. By using the same kind of wood, you'll have a similar color. Fret boards may be stained or oiled. No varnish. The strings would wear it off in no time. 4. Or live with it. 5. Retire the instrument and get a new one. And always keep a nail-clipper in your kit.
____________________ My MP3 Section: http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1143/ My Myspace area: http://myspace.com/philj200 |
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banjo brad Super Moderator 
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SmallHop- Take a wander over to Frank Ford's http://www.frets.com , go to the index, pick "Owners Manuals", select "Steel String Guitars". Then go to the "Frets" page. Frank suggests that fingernail marks are only cosmetic in nature, and do not affect the playability of the instrument. If you disagree, take your instrument to a luthier for fingerboard replacement, or any of Philj200's other suggestions. Incidentally, frets.com is a great resource for any fretted instrument owner. (No affiliation, just a satisfied visitor.)  Keep on pickin'Brad
____________________ ezFolk Help Brad Prickly Pear Music Banjo Brad's ezFolk page TOTMC |
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SmallHop Approved
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Thx Philj200, You gave me lots to chew on. And, it's good to know not use a hard set filler. I appreciate your advice. You assume correctly the gooves are such that it is easy to fret strings sharp. I'm somewhat interested in your #3 solution. These days, I trim my nails often! SmallHop
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SmallHop Approved
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banjo brad, Thx for the link. I paroused further & came to: http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Luthier/Technique/Frets/FBoardDivot/fboardivot.html I've been to frets.com, but was focued on "fretboard" & not "fingerboard" More to chew on. Thx again. BTW, here is pic of my fingerboard divots. SmallHop Attachment: fbrdgrv.jpg (Downloaded 151 times)
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banjo brad Super Moderator
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Methinks thee needs to lighten up on the pressure! If you look closely, the divots are not directly under the string path, but between the courses (old lute term). If you learn to fret a little lighter, you shouldn't roll the string off into the divots and sharp the notes. (I think it gives the instrument some character, if you learn to play it as is, think of the stories you could tell - "Ol' Bob here got this one when we was buskin' for a meal (drink) in this little ol' backwater town way out in . . .)  Keep on pickin'Brad
____________________ ezFolk Help Brad Prickly Pear Music Banjo Brad's ezFolk page TOTMC |
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1four5 Approved 
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Hey...it looks like a big cat walked on your fretboard on a really hot day I'm not a luthier, but I'm also not afraid to work on stuff. I used to build R/C model airplanes, and we had a great (and EXTREAMLY STRONG and HARD) way to fill divits in the wood (especially after crashes). Using course grit sandpaper, make a pile of dust from a block of wood. Fill the damage with the dust and soak with CA glue (super glue). Repeat this process over and over until the divot is filled. Do the final sanding to the countour of the fretboard with some fine grit sandpaper to your liking. A true luthier might cringe, but I've done this a lot with those old airplanes of mine, and I wouldn't hesitate to do it on a fretboard. It would be harder and probably last longer than the original. I would also like to add that I do a lot of this kind of thing on old junker guitars, to get them playable. The reason I don't blink about using super glue and epoxy and screws and stuff like that, is because the guitars really have no collectable value...I just want them playable...and they have given me and friends and kids in my friend's church many hours of continued enjoyment. If your guitar has collectable or vintage value, then disreguard this post, and get a professional estimate for the repair. 
____________________ These are the good times! |
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Philj200 Approved
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I just took another look at the pix of the fretboard; first of all, I urge you not to play during a full moon. Kidding aside, I agree with 1four5 for reasons stated and one more; the fix will probably be noticable. If that bothers you or will effect the value of an instrument you might sell or trade someday, than another solution is indicated. I would prefer not to use sandpaper to make the dust for two reasons: 1. The sandpaper itself. Some of the grit will wear off the paper and mix with the dust. This will not take the glue, stain or oil the same or at all. 2. Takes too long. I prefer a wood rasp. I use curved sculpters' rasps called tifflers. But any metal rasp or file will do. I learned the technique from a high quality furniture restorer, but saw no reason why it can't work with any wood creation. Hint: Work in a clean environment. My bench is a mess and that's okay because I only do rough work on it. For fine work, I transfer to an artist's drafting table. When you creat the dust for the fill, rasp the stock onto clean white paper. Check that the dust inself is uniform in size. Discard any pieces that are too big. After you make a thimble sized pile, tranfer it to a second sheets of paper or envelope. This would not be a good time to sneeze, turn the air conditioner on or accept affection from a cat. Creat a second and third pile of dust. Reserving the dust to a place of safety. Mix small amounts with wood glue (I prefer Wellbond) and work as described above. With gooves these long and shallow, you might consider drilling a few holes into the deepest depressions. Use a 3/32 bit and go about 1/4" into the fretboard. The hole will give the repair more to attach to. If you fainted when I suggested drilling into the face of the fretboard and have just returned, you were out for 47 minutes. I won't think less of you for not taking this step. Save any extra dry dust in a labelled water-tight jar. You might need it again. Sanding Opinion: You can stain the dust before you mix with glue. It's messier, but makes finishing easier. I like to sand these tiny fills with fine sandpaper, or jewel's cloth wrapped around my finger so I can feel when the fill is level...or level enough. This is an older instrument, the objective is to let it's age show. My principle guitar is a maze of cracks. Everything structual is fixed, but I never made an attempt to give the old girl a facelift. She's earned her wrinkles. I just don't let them hurt her...or me. Last edited on Mon Aug 8th, 2005 03:23 pm by Philj200 ____________________ My MP3 Section: http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1143/ My Myspace area: http://myspace.com/philj200 |
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SmallHop Approved
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Hey banjo brad, Thee has since thus lightened up on string/fret pressure. What you see in fbrdgrv.jpg has taught me the hard way the need for proper fretting! Tense fretting  is part of the cause to these grooves. I have since learned to fret more relaxed, which not only saves the fretboard, but improves my playing.  The other cause was poor finger nail manicure. (Also learned the hard way. But, hey -- I'm glad I'm learning!) This makes sense why the divots are "between the courses." Everytime I fretted, my nail would slowly chissel the wood above the string being fretted. My nails are always trimmed short these days! A combo of poor fretting & long finger nails = what you see in fbrdgrv.jpg. Beginners out there -- take advantage & learn of my past ignorance.  SmallHop
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SmallHop Approved
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Hi 1four5, Well, it has been quite warm lately. Have you seen your Frets lately?  Thanks for your insight. This tenor guitar was my uncle's, who died when I was about 1 years old (~40 years ago). So the guitar does have sentimental value. Yet, part of the sentimental value is that I want it playable so I can continue to play my uncles guitar. I started playing it when I was young teen. Also, this is the guitar I used when I first started doing worship songs w/ kids in their Sunday schools many years back; here is where I found purpose in playing guitar. I'd like to bring it back in the classroom from time to time. Not looking to sell someday, but rather keep playing w/ a purpose, yet realize I can't take it w/ me when I die (like my uncle didn't, & he played it w/ a purpose), but it can pass on to another who can learn to play it, make mistakes in taking care of it, & eventually learn to play it w/ a purpose (like I've done). I'm w/ you in that I'm not afraid to work on it; I find it quite satisfying as I learn more the art/science of acoustic guitar (quite amazing). The fretboard grooves are not the only problem developed over the years. Along w/ the grooves came serious fret wear (from that tense fretting ). I've begun leveling the frets, the start seen in fbrdgrv.jpg (& I've paused on leveling, considering just replacing them; haven't decided yet). And, years ago, the bridge had pulled apart (a few times, & I just kept reglueing it back together, until finally it shattered - barely made it thru the kids Christmas program!). I brought the guitar to local music store, couldn't find a tenor guitar bridge, so had them put on a regular 6-string guitar bridge, & just used the middle 4 pin holes (only guitar at the time, & I needed some kind of a fix). This created another problem; the bridge was way too high, making the action way too high, & thus making play way too hard, & eventually the neck angled forward. So, w/ no truss rod in these tenors, I am also working at resetting the neck, which I have already successfully removed the neck/fretboard from the body (yeh!). A few years ago I picked up a harmony tenor guitar bridge off of ebaY, thinking someday I'll replace the 6-string bridge, which I'm now doing w/ this refurbish project. And, since I've pulled the bridge off, the wood needs repair from the larger 6-string bridge. And, there are a few gouges & dings from bumps & drops over the years...well, give a mouse a cookie, I just may end up refinshing the entire guitar...eeeh  .The great thing about web sites & bullitan boards w/ great folks on them like this place is I can research each of these steps in depth before I dive into it. You folks have been a great help, and researching guitar fix is something I didn't do years ago. I really do want to get this tenor guitar playable once again. Maybe this do-it-yourself thing is just something deep in our Dutch blood, 1four5.  SmallHop
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SmallHop Approved
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Thx, Philj200! My pride almost kept me from posting fbrdgrv.jpg, but I figured "poo poo" on pride; I want to figure this thing out & get playing it again, whether I need to keep fretboard as is or somehow mend w/ your's & other's suggestions. I will think of Philj200, however, the next time I play under a full moon ...  I hadn't thought of a wood rasp, but it makes good sense. I probably would've dove right in w/ sand paper. Also, I didn't faint during your drill the fretboard suggestion. Now if you fainted thinking I have no sense, you've been out for 47 minutes & now I'll tell you why I didn't faint. I've already drilled (1/16") into fretboard right in the 14th & 15th fret slots (frets removed of course!) so I could steam loosen the glue in the dove-tail joint underneath the fretboard (for neck reset as explaned in previous message to 1four5). So, if I need to get my drill ready again -- I'll do it. Thx for the great suggestion. It makes good sense for attaching the "Philj200 fretboard divot patch" (you may have something here  ).You also gave me something to chew on regarding a full face-lift. Thx. This is an older instrument, the objective is to let it's age show. SmallHop
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1four5 Approved
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Well, it has been quite warm lately. Have you seen your Frets lately? Frets is sitting on my lap as I type! You project sounds interesting, and believe me, when you get it done, it will play better than it ever has before. People might think I'm crazy, but when you show a lot of care to an instrument, it appreciates it...and pays you back by sounding it's best. Very much like the love a stray animal gives, when you take it in and give it a home. By the way Smallhop...how did you know I have Dutch Heritage?
____________________ These are the good times! |
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Philj200 Approved
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What a minute! Hold everything!. Put the rasp down and step away from the work bench... Another idea to complicate things even further: INLAY! Find or buy some mother of pearl (or Pearl herself) or hardwood inlay that would fit over the damage area. Trace a rectangle over the damage and the exact same rectangle over the inlay stock. Cut the inlay (razor, jeweler's saw, knife). Check your measurements. I suggest a rectangle or square. If you try to cut a complicated inlay you're opening the window to massive frustration. I wouldn't attempt that kind of cutting. With flat chisels (NOT awls or guages) gently score the edges of the rectangle. Then remove the fretboard stock within the rectangle to a depth equal to the inlay. Any mistakes or any orginal damage that's too deep you can level with the wood-dust/glue method. You can use the wood dust to fill in any edges between the inlay and the fretboard. There you go. I actually like this idea best. Last edited on Tue Aug 9th, 2005 04:00 pm by Philj200 ____________________ My MP3 Section: http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1143/ My Myspace area: http://myspace.com/philj200 |
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banjo brad Super Moderator
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Also be sure to use wood glue on the fingerboard. Since you started leveling frets, you will find that eventually you will need to replace them (they can be worn down too thin to play), and if any of the crazyglue stuff has gotten into the area, you will destroy the fingerboard trying to get them out! Just more to complicate your life  Keep on pickin'Brad ps. 1four5, you gotta get frets a banjo, now!
____________________ ezFolk Help Brad Prickly Pear Music Banjo Brad's ezFolk page TOTMC |
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Philj200 Approved
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Any yellow carpenter's glue. And only yellow carpenter's glue. White glue is not strong enough. Resin glues are trouble endorsed to a future date. I once worked for a real luthier and he taught me a neat trick. Old butter knives make excellent fretboard and bridge wedges. Go to flea markets. Buy a bunch of the real old-fashioned kind with wide, long blades. And if they break, so what. Working in tandem, you can walk a small separation up a neck with little fear of wood removal. Plus they have no sharp edge to dig in. The handle gives leverage. And the blade can be heated with a propane touch. Heat soluable glues were used a lot in the 30-60's. Best fretboad clamping system I every came across was also the cheapest: rubber bands.
____________________ My MP3 Section: http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1143/ My Myspace area: http://myspace.com/philj200 |
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SmallHop Approved
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Hallo 1four5, Thx for the encouragement. It may be slow going as I etch out some time over the coming month(s). But thats o.k. I remember how patient you were w/ getting your Jenny Bari, & your patience paid off. You were one excited guy! Dutch heritage...well, we've had some e-mail dialogue in past regarding bari ukes , & we eventually got chatting about your Michigan roots. Somehow I conclued Dutch was part of your heritage. Part of it may have to do w/ your namesake...it is a bit of a giveway, especially to another Dutchman like me. Vaarwel, SmallHop
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SmallHop Approved
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Thx banjo brad, With that in mind, I'll stay away from the crazyglue & stick w/ the yellow wood glue. The frets are petite to begin w/. I was sizing fret wire the other day at Stewart-MacDonald, & yep, they are the Narrow (& I think they are the Low, I can't remember). SmallHop
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SmallHop Approved
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Philj200...You are full of ideas. Thx! Inlays never crossed my mind. I'm going to look into that. I like the idea. And, thx for all the tips; rubberbands, butter knives, & yellow glue ... these will be helpful in my journey.  I'll be rummage selling for butter knives this weekend. This Harmony Tenor Guitar will be unique one-of-a-kind when all is done; & full of stories. I can't wait to play it under a full moon. Appreciate you sharing your expertise & knowledge of these things, SmallHop
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1four5 Approved
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Part of it may have to do w/ your namesake...it is a bit of a giveway, especially to another Dutchman like me. Oh yeah!!! Now I remember! ...us tired old uke players can be rather forgetfull  I remember asking if you were related to the neighbors I grew up with! Good luck with your restoration project, I also love the inlay idea...something I would never have thought of either. You would definately have a one of a kind!
____________________ These are the good times! |
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