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| Moderated by: Tony Provencher, Richard Hefner | Page:   1 2 |
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| Classical guitars and folk music. | Rate Topic |
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| Posted: Thu Sep 28th, 2006 04:07 am |
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21st Post |
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AmyDK Approved
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Fascinating reading, guys. I've taken classes with old-timey folks who LIVE for those recordings and use them as a guide for playing and teaching. And that's just fantastic! But then, when the Mammals came to town and did this phenomenal show, receiving an enthusiastic standing ovation, these same folks wouldn't stand up, wouldn't even clap, because they felt they were butchering the way the music should be done. That, I had a hard time with. Shouldn't the musicality/talent of a person or group be recognized for what it is, regardless of how you think a song SHOULD be done? As you all know, I'm very into traditional music, and field recordings, original recordings of songs/tunes - great! But then I love to see what folks can do with it. How can they make it their own? That's one of my things - how do I make these songs my own? I guess I'm just flex enough to enjoy most music where it's at, and not get into a snit because something isn't done the way it SHOULD be done. Now, it goes without saying that I've heard some songs/tunes and I know it's done a way it SHOULDN"T be done...   ), but maybe that's my own personal taste.Oh, and on the topic of the original post... When I started getting serious about the guitar (about age 13), my dad bought me a guitar - a classical Takamine. What did I know from guitars at 13? It was great, had an awesome sound, and was the only guitar I performed with (or even owned), until I started back into music again recently. Even then, I used my Tak (though the neck seems awfully large for me now) and my hubby's old Ibanez until I bought my Taylor - just two years ago... I never had a problem using the classical, and no one ever gave me grief about it (to my face at least). And I played out quite a bit on it.  Amy
____________________ Amy's ezFolk page Amy on MySpace My Website |
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| Posted: Thu Sep 28th, 2006 01:28 pm |
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22nd Post |
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Philj200 Approved 
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"old-timey folks who LIVE for those recordings and use them as a guide for playing and teaching." --They are not teaching music. To me they are in the bugs-in-amber business. I forget the complete quote but some wise person (if you agree) or some smart add (if you don't), said something about orthodoxy being the last refuge of the dumb. More or less. If Billy Holliday never deviated from her mentor (mentress?) she would have just been Besse Smith Lite. (There's a visual pun in there as well.) The works and the people who came before are exactly and only that. Learn, respect, be inspired but think for yourself. Play a song the way you feel it, even if it turns out to have a different feel than Blind Lemon or Gaither Carlton's original. I also guarantee that Blind Lemon, Gaither Carlton et al heard the songs they played on those old 78's from someone, or at least got the idea from someone. They made no attempt. Absolutely no attempt to reproduce what they heard. They played the songs they way they wanted. And if the song changed...so what. Listen to John Hurt play candy man. Listen to Dave Van Ronk, Listen to Sleep John Estess, Listen to Libba Cotton all playing Candy Man. They are the same song and each and every one is radically different. Can anyone dare say anyone is wrong? And you (we) (me) ALL have the same rights as they did. (Within the copywrite laws.) Don't listen to Sammy Davis Jr. His Candy Man sucks.
____________________ My MP3 Section: http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1143/ My Myspace area: http://myspace.com/philj200 |
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| Posted: Thu Sep 28th, 2006 01:38 pm |
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23rd Post |
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Philj200 Approved
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"Don't make fun of Superman's cape and Never spit into the wind!" --I was and am still a Jim Croces fan. Brad, When my friend realized who he was arguing with the color drained out of him like a broken thermometer. Machem was still chugging up the argue hill. Now my friend was trying to backpedal out of the conversation so fast that Cirque Do Soleil would have appreciated his act. I mean, he was palms ups and nodding to beat the band. And as he stepped back, Machem stepped forward and literally shouted him out the door. Okay, my friend was now on MacDougal Street and wishing he was invisible. I'm still in the store watching. Machem looks around the store at all the proto-folkies...holds an angry face for a moment and cracks up laughing so hard he had to hold on to a record rack to keep from falling over. He was putting my friend on. He looked at me and said, "Your pal has a few points, but he started out too smug for me to stomach. Don't tell him I said so...at least for a while. I want the lesson to sink in"
____________________ My MP3 Section: http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1143/ My Myspace area: http://myspace.com/philj200 |
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| Posted: Thu Sep 28th, 2006 10:01 pm |
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24th Post |
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banjo brad Super Moderator 
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I figured it would turn out something like that! The good folk always know. And, I think it's "don't laugh at the Long Ranger, never step on Superman's cape . . ." Croce was good (and too soon gone). Brad Last edited on Thu Sep 28th, 2006 10:02 pm by banjo brad ____________________ ezFolk Help Brad Prickly Pear Music Banjo Brad's ezFolk page TOTMC |
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| Posted: Thu Sep 28th, 2006 10:21 pm |
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25th Post |
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AmyDK Approved
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Philj200 wrote:"old-timey folks who LIVE for those recordings and use them as a guide for playing and teaching." I have to respectfully disagree with you there, Phil. These teachers were some of the best I've had. I said they used this music as a guide. I believe that there is so much to be learned by studying the old ways. Even if they're not original (so, what's original anyway??), how things were played in the past can certainly teach us a lot about musicality, traditions, and technique. That doesn't mean that as a musician I have to stick with the way it was taught to me, but I feel so much more grounded knowing where the music came from and then taking from there. Much as you were saying about Candyman. There's the, I guess, original, and then what folks do with it. I completely respect and admire these teachers I've had, and all the others who uphold traditional music. My beef is when people see ONLY the traditional, and don't celebrate the creativity of those who come after. Amy
____________________ Amy's ezFolk page Amy on MySpace My Website |
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| Posted: Thu Sep 28th, 2006 10:38 pm |
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26th Post |
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Philj200 Approved
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"My beef is when people see ONLY the traditional, and don't celebrate the creativity of those who come after." --That's what I was reacting to. Far too many teachers insist on students learning how they played a song. No interpretation allowed. When old field recordings are the teaching paradiegm and must be in effect worshiped as they are...forever unchanging...to quote Dylan, "I just get bored." Lessons are lessons, not straight jackets. It is the good teacher who tells you that. And the better teacher who asks, "You've learned how the old folks did. How do you do it?"
____________________ My MP3 Section: http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1143/ My Myspace area: http://myspace.com/philj200 |
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| Posted: Fri Sep 29th, 2006 11:23 am |
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27th Post |
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kvngermain Approved
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Philj200 wrote:
interesting thread. There is a very specific old tradition in teaching music in Turkey called 'meshk', where a teacher will place a great deal of emphasis on the student to mimic what it is the teacher plays. The concept is that there is something being passed on that is greater than both the teacher and the student, that music lives beyond individual tastes and imagination. The interesting thing about this approach is that it isn't systematic - they can generally avoid the problems of straight jacketing the lessons, because of the intimate connection between teacher and student. Assuming a few things, of course. Unfortunatly, here in the US, (I can say from my own experience at least), that in a general sense our music studios have a detrimental production quality to just churning out simple mimics. There is a saying, "may their imitation lead them to the truth". If a real student really wants to learn what there is within music to learn then he or she will have to take some chances, and that may or may not mean taking lessons... imo.
____________________ Psychedelic folk fused with the traditions of Sufism or some Turkish Oud Music |
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| Posted: Fri Sep 29th, 2006 01:31 pm |
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28th Post |
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Philj200 Approved
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Thank you for refreshing my shopbox Mister Kngermain. Did you see that Sean Connery film "The Name of the Rose? In it monks in the Darg Ages spend there lives copying books. But not writing anything new. And not reading the wisdom in front of them either. The ancients never said the "buck stops here." Woody Guthrie never wanted his songs sung only with a nasal Oklahoma twang and solo guitar either. Think of those monks playing guitar. Suddenly one of them says, "I want to try the Pastures of Plenty with a reggae beat." No matter if it would sound good or bad. The other monks would not listen. They might even cast the first stone. I have rebelled against religeons that insist on rote repetition for pretty much the same reason. And in some of us, Old TIme Music dedication would/could shame the faith of a Born Again. Listen to Pete Seegar sing Darlin' Cory. Great version and if you get his really early recording (I have it on a 10" LP), you'll hear incredible banjo work. And it is a faithful interpretation of earlier tunes, still available. He didn't play it as he heard it. And who can say he's wrong. Last edited on Fri Sep 29th, 2006 01:33 pm by Philj200 ____________________ My MP3 Section: http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1143/ My Myspace area: http://myspace.com/philj200 |
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| Posted: Fri Sep 29th, 2006 02:18 pm |
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29th Post |
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kvngermain Approved
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Philj200 wrote: Thank you for refreshing my shopbox Mister Kngermain. thats fine, but I don't think we are actually disagreeing, there is subtleties involved here that can't be just glossed over out of hand. You can and many do, but different people require different things. Pete Seeger, you, I, and others are all widely different people, and if one us can benefit from one certain method of learning I hardly see the point in dismissing it. Sometimes lessons are good, sometimes they are not. For a varity of reason depending on the time, place, and persons involved. Sometimes learning by rote is usefull, sometimes it is not. Freedom of expression can yield an empty crop just as easily as imitation can, imo. There are lots of free jazz artists whom I can't bear to listen to. But, put on some Ornette Coleman and you've got my attention.
____________________ Psychedelic folk fused with the traditions of Sufism or some Turkish Oud Music |
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| Posted: Fri Sep 29th, 2006 02:32 pm |
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30th Post |
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Philj200 Approved
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"Freedom of expression can yield an empty crop just as easily as imitation can, imo." --Mine too. And as in science, most experiments fail. But some succeed. Must be my day for remembering media triva: The episode of MASH where an Air Force bombardier thinks he Jesus. It ends with him being evac'ed, as he leaves Radar who seemed to believe him, asks, "Is it true that all prayers are answered?" The shell-shocked Air Force officer, still delusional answers (as he begins to cry), "All prayers are answered. But sometimes the answer is no." We live is a big open country. If you like Sun Ra's Archestra, you can find that kind of music. And if you like Clearance Ashely and his son-in-law, you can hear them too. I think you can like both of them. There are no monks empowered to pass judgement on what is righteous and acceptable. They can only speak for themselves. I agree, we are not disagreeing.
____________________ My MP3 Section: http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1143/ My Myspace area: http://myspace.com/philj200 |
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| Posted: Fri Sep 29th, 2006 02:47 pm |
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31st Post |
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kvngermain Approved
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Philj200 wrote: There are no monks empowered to pass judgement on what is righteous and acceptable. good point, a teacher can be usefull for many things, but not necessarily taste. good show!
____________________ Psychedelic folk fused with the traditions of Sufism or some Turkish Oud Music |
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| Posted: Fri Sep 29th, 2006 04:24 pm |
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32nd Post |
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Philj200 Approved
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How far from NYS is Easthampton, MA? You might be interested in the Folk Music Weekend I'm helping put together at Camp Greenkille, near Port Jervis, NY.
____________________ My MP3 Section: http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1143/ My Myspace area: http://myspace.com/philj200 |
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| Posted: Fri Sep 29th, 2006 07:04 pm |
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33rd Post |
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kvngermain Approved
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port jervis? funny, thats where my mom grew up. E'hampton is in western ma, 'bout 3 hours from NYC. Thats rightly nice of you thank you. My schedual is pretty chrunched up - I am not sure if I can, but when is it?
____________________ Psychedelic folk fused with the traditions of Sufism or some Turkish Oud Music |
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| Posted: Fri Sep 29th, 2006 07:17 pm |
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34th Post |
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Philj200 Approved
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Ask your mom about Camp Greenkill, the YMCA facility in Hugonout, NY just a hoot an holler up the road. November 17 (Friday dinner) through the 19th after lunch. All acoustic music. Six to ten workshops are planned. An informal hoot on Friday. An open mike concert on Saturday A gospel sing on Sunday morning. Hopefully people will informally meet, jam and enjoy. The location is on 1,000 beautiful acrea of woodlands, trails, lakes, fields. There's a big gym. I've been up to this place two or three times a year for near twenty years. Good prices: $170 to $220 per person all inclusive. Kids, significant others, non-pickers... ll invited. The camp can hold a ton of people. If you're interested further, I'll e-mail the brochore. If you can pass it along to other pickers, that would be appreciated too. Last edited on Fri Sep 29th, 2006 07:20 pm by Philj200 ____________________ My MP3 Section: http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1143/ My Myspace area: http://myspace.com/philj200 |
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