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| Tsugaru Shamisen Bridges - Other Instruments - Other Instruments - ezFolk Forums | |||||||||||||||
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AllenZ Approved 
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Lots of various kinds exist. Here's a few examples: From Top Left Counterclockwise~ 舟型の駒 (Boat Shaped Bridge) スス竹 (Soot Treated Bamboo, Ivory Upper Bridge) 半象牙スス竹(Half Ivory, Soot Treated Bamboo) 津軽用職人特製半象牙竹(Customed Completely Hand Craft Half Ivory Bridge) 津軽用職人特製半べっ甲竹(Customed Completely Hand Craft Half Bekko Bridge) The Hand Craft ones are made and adjusted by a Professional Koma Maker. So you know its a good sound, but its at $55 a pop, and supplies are limited to like 2-3 bridges a month these days. Attachment: IMG_1956.jpg (Downloaded 141 times) Last edited on Fri May 16th, 2008 03:49 am by AllenZ ____________________ To hell with circumstances. I create opportunities. "You're lucky Buddhism teaches freedom from desire, because I've got the desire to kick your ass!" - Richard Gere Where I'm from? A little town called None Of Your Goddamn Business. |
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Tsugaru Approved 
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Ill take one bekko bridge please
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AllenZ Approved
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Ooooh, big spender, I see but I think its worth it down the road. Just don't get curious with these hand crafted Koma Bridges. I had a really high quality hand craft Nagauta All Bone Koma one before and one day after practice I got bored so I was bending it alittle to see how strong the bone was..... and it broke. Stupid me, that was a good $48 bucks down the drain..... Now I'm afraid to buy an Ivory Nagauta one.... Hahahaha. Attachment: shari_koma.jpg (Downloaded 137 times)
____________________ To hell with circumstances. I create opportunities. "You're lucky Buddhism teaches freedom from desire, because I've got the desire to kick your ass!" - Richard Gere Where I'm from? A little town called None Of Your Goddamn Business. |
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Tsugaru Approved
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AllenZ wrote: Ooooh, big spender, I see but I think its worth it down the road. DUH 
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fiddlefella Approved 
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Hey there,  I made a ivory koma (made out of midake [as well as ivory]) to go along with my homemade Tsugaru shamisen. I had a professionally made bekko koma with me so I could replicate it fairly accurately, thickness and size wise. Construction is very easy, but manipulating and cutting the little pieces is a little tricky (in a frustrating sort of way). Just takes a bit of time. Anywho, I'm not sure if this is true with all ivory koma or just mine, but is it just me, or does ivory give the sawari a softer, warmer sound than the bekko koma (which seems to have a brighter, yet harsher quality)? (note: the picture was taken before the itomichi were made) Take it easy but take it, Kyle Attachment: Ivory Koma.JPG (Downloaded 130 times)
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fiddlefella Approved
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Oh, P.S: Very glad to have found this great forum!
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AllenZ Approved
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Umm... that's strange. Of all the bridges own and experimenting with other people's Shamisens, its all the opposite.
Attachment: 20071208191014095.jpg (Downloaded 119 times) Last edited on Thu Aug 7th, 2008 03:26 am by AllenZ ____________________ To hell with circumstances. I create opportunities. "You're lucky Buddhism teaches freedom from desire, because I've got the desire to kick your ass!" - Richard Gere Where I'm from? A little town called None Of Your Goddamn Business. |
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Tsugaru Approved
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Yes, I have had a different experience too. I find the ivory to produce a very crisp, sharp tone. (Just think of nagauta 1st string sound with ivory koma.)---This koma here I purchased from one of the finest koma makes around. The sound emanating from this is very bright and crisp. I do not own a half bekko koma yet, but I hear they project a mellower tone, then that of ivory grade. Attachment: IMG_2171.JPG (Downloaded 119 times) Last edited on Thu Aug 7th, 2008 06:39 am by Tsugaru |
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AllenZ Approved
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Ah! I recognize that Maker's Seal. That koma maker is one stubborn son of a bitach. He only makes komas when he has the perfect materials and even if you got his hands on the materials which he dubs worthy of his komas..... He only makes them when he feels like it. I remember trying to get my shop to beg him to get a Half Bekko/Half Ivory Susu Bamboo Koma from him, no luck. He sells them when he wants I guess. I remember some other makers say that they can make a koma as just as good as this guy.... from replicating the exact size, weight, and thickness.... nothing comes close making a bootleg. Those other makers just think they know what they are doing, but in fact, they don't know what's a real koma.
____________________ To hell with circumstances. I create opportunities. "You're lucky Buddhism teaches freedom from desire, because I've got the desire to kick your ass!" - Richard Gere Where I'm from? A little town called None Of Your Goddamn Business. |
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fiddlefella Approved
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Must be your shamisen..... or the type of bamboo or wood used for the base or the way you connect the top and the base. Hmm. . . the bamboo I used looks the same as the pro bekko koma. I connected the top and base with a small amount of super glue. I guess nikawa would probably be what the top traditionalists use? (besides making the whole thing out of ivory) So yeah, it must be the shamisen. I do notice, no matter the koma, the sound isn't quite as sharp as the pro shamisens. Even though my shami skin is stretched as tight as a pro skinned shamisen, I gotta put a good skin on it. I used goat skin (which, while the same thickness as dog, is a bit uneven). A friend sent two sheets of dog skin, but I'm afraid of rupturing one of them during the stretching. However, to have a supply of skins in case of rupturing, I found a source for dead cats (one of those bio companies that sell euthanized cats to schools) so next summer, I'll hopefully be tanning my own cat skins which should save several hundreds of dollars. I hear cat skin breaks easily, even on classical shamisens, but dead dogs are almost impossible to find, since schools don't dissect them. Do you think that if I use the back of the cat (which I assume is thicker) rather than the belly, that should be more durable? Sorry to go a bit off topic!  (and sorry to be slightly morbid! [but hey, it's part of the kawahari business after all])
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AllenZ Approved
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fiddlefella wrote: Hmm. . . the bamboo I used looks the same as the pro bekko koma. I connected the top and base with a small amount of super glue. I guess nikawa would probably be what the top traditionalists use? (besides making the whole thing out of ivory) Nah, it wouldn't vibrate good enough for the Tsugaru ring if its all ivory or bone. Kinda like how they don't make dous out of Redwood. No idea about the glue thing though. Never even thought of these stuff because I know I can't produce anything near what these guys and hundreds of years of knowledge passed down can do. That and I don't even know what materials and what to look for in the basic stages of even planning to make one. If I was serious about it, I would be like those guys that want to be swordsmiths and do apprentice studying. Bamboos might look the same, but really it makes a big difference. Like those professional makers in China that make dizis (Chinese flutes), they would get a big supply of the same type of top grade bamboo, they would throw out most of them because they would redeem them un-usable. I think there's most than just similarilty that counts. Like how I was laughing when I heard a bunch of people from a school of Tsugaru Shamisen (Don't want to say the school's name before I get them trouble) say that they ran into more than one case of buying a 10K-20K so-called "Top Quality" and it sounds like crap. These "Top Quality" ones are top quality, wood with beautiful tochi (doesn't affect the sound), and high quality gold hozo (does jack to the sound too, just phucks up the vibrations too). Handmade by some bloke that thinks they know what they are doing. End results, looks great, worth more than regular Shamisens, but sounds like a fisher price. Weird thing about the dogs, some guys I know only want to use Japanese dog skin. They say dog skin from othe places like Korea, China and South Pacific just can't match it. Could be a pride thing. As for cats, there's a reason why they only use the belly for a sound quality thing. In addition, I don't think other animals are a good idea. When the older versions of the Shamisen went from Okinawa to mainland Japan, I'm sure tanners didn't just go "Since we don't have big enough snakes, let just use dogs and cats!" I bet in the past they already experimented with more abundant animals like ox, goats, horses..... but they ended up with cats and dogs. They gotta have a reason. But why don't you try snakeskin, it vibrates great even with thick scales. I'm pretty sure its more easy to attain here in the States.
____________________ To hell with circumstances. I create opportunities. "You're lucky Buddhism teaches freedom from desire, because I've got the desire to kick your ass!" - Richard Gere Where I'm from? A little town called None Of Your Goddamn Business. |
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fiddlefella Approved
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If I was serious about it, I would be like those guys that want to be swordsmiths and do apprentice studying. Oh yeah. Spending your whole life making shamisen koma. Can't beat that! I bet you can get the same result just by spending a few months experimenting/making many copies of a professional made koma rather than becoming a copy of the professional. By imitation/self-teaching, you can get instant practice in learning how to make koma, without spending a year or two sharpening the sensei's chisels or getting the sensei's bullsh!^ drilled into you ('cause let's face it, any master of a craft carries along with it their myths, especially when the craft is passed down.) before you can start making your own koma.Kinda like how they don't make dous out of Redwood. Oh yeah. Well redwood is a very soft wood. (unless we're talking 紅木) It'd be really hard to make a shamisen out of that. You know, it's funny, I was reading somewhere (I forgot where) that shamisens are usually made out of soft wood. Soft wood is usually lighter wood, right? Well, I made my shamisen out of east indian rosewood which was, I thought, the closest I could come to the wood most shamisen makers use, even though the rosewood is hardwood. However, when I hefted my shamisen and a pro one (which are the exact same size), the pro shamisen was twice as heavy as mine. (and there wasn't a brick the pro shamisen's dou, of that I am almost positive ) I don't get it. How could the "softwood" shamisen be heavier than the hardwood shamisen? Like movie genres, do Japanese just have a different scale of what qualifies as hardwood and what qualifies as softwood?They ran into more than one case of buying a 10K-20K so-called "Top Quality" and it sounds like crap. These "Top Quality" ones are top quality, wood with beautiful tochi (doesn't affect the sound), and high quality gold hozo (does jack to the sound too, just phucks up the vibrations too). Ah. Yeah, over a certain price, you're paying for the direction of the wood grain.  A friend told me about a koto museum (I think) she went to where they had about 30 kotos, ranging from the cheapest of the cheap, to a gastric price where a sultan couldn't afford it. She said that after the 7th (I think) koto, there was practically no difference in sound, just the wood patterns. (I wonder if the blind koto players ever splurged on those "paying-for-the-grain" koto?) Handmade by some bloke that thinks they know what they are doing. End results, looks great, worth more than regular Shamisens but sounds like a fisher price. Haha! Fisher-price shamisens!  However, me being devil's advocate, doesn't the skin account for roughly 80% of the sound quality? I mean, after all, the dou really is just a box with the inside carved out. If the maker had any bit of shamisen know-how, he could easily recreate the size/shape and inside/outside curve of a pro shamisen, and then add on ayasugi. Of course, he just may be a really crappy skinner!-they would throw out most of them because they would redeem them un-usable. I think there's most than just similarilty that counts. I think most of it is probably just in the dizi maker's head. I mean, there's only so much level of skill that an instrument maker can get, but the level of neuroticism one can achieve is endless! -Weird thing about the dogs, some guys I know only want to use Japanese dog skin. They say dog skin from othe places like Korea, China and South Pacific just can't match it. Could be a pride thing. Yeah, I think it's definitely a pride thing. I can't see why there'd be much of any difference (unless there's lead in the Chinese dogs* ). Again, it's neurotic. Though when it's your profession, I can see how you can just get sucked in to the issue (I.e, get neurotic) and not be able to see the big picture. I mean, who knows, in 50 years, skinners might be saying that the best grade dogs come only from a certain street in hokkaido... assuming that Japan isn't underwater by then (though, knowing the Japanese, I'm sure they'll figure some way to keep it afloat [or may start an underwater city! ). Anyway... using different animals, I can see how somebody might be able to tell the difference, but using the same animal, there may be a bit of difference by how the animal was raised, but surely not because of the mutt's nationality. Even then, once it's all said 'n stretched, I doubt even a professional skinner could even tell a difference without his head playing games on him (if you know what I mean) *Heyoo! -As for cats, there's a reason why they only use the belly for a sound quality thing. Yeah. The belly's skin is thinner than the back, thus more resonant. Unfortunately, thus more breakable. Do you know if for dog skin, they use the belly or the back? That’d be curiously interesting if they used the back, but it’s probably the belly. -I bet in the past they already experimented with more abundant animals like ox, goats, horses..... but they ended up with cats and dogs. They gotta have a reason. My theory is that they probably experimented with different animals a little bit, but I think they reason they chose dogs and cats is simply, they had a lot of ‘em! I’d think they needed their ox/horses ‘n all for farming/war ‘n such, and that using them for instruments would seem to be a waste. (in survival, music would be last priority I think) But now cats. There’s always an abundance of them and besides companionship, there’s not much help on the farm or in the battlefield. Then, I figure that over time, the use of cats just became traditional and that the reasoning for their use went from, “we have so many cats and we need the other animals for more important things, so let’s use cats.” evolving to, “Cats are the superior skin for shamisen because yadayadayada…”, That’s my hypothesis, at least. Thoughts? -But why don't you try snakeskin, it vibrates great even with thick scales. I'm pretty sure its more easy to attain here in the States. Unfortunately, big snake skins are just as hard to get. There was a 9’ anaconda skin being sold on ebay last year for $20 which I considered getting for a beat-up antique san xian. However, when the price went up to $60, I realized I probably wouldn’t be playing san xian that much. I never thought about putting it on my shamisen or future erhu though. Since then, I think ebay is now banned from people putting up endangered items (like python skins or bekkou). -I don't think other animals are a good idea. But it’s so hard not to! Goat skin seductively lures you into buying it with it’s Simple Simon price of $10 per sheet, unlike dog skin’s $70 per sheet. Golly, sorry for the long post!  It's been a while since I've had a shamisen discussion with somebody!  Kyle
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fiddlefella Approved
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Oh, just a quick addition as I've remembered something about the apprentice thing. My dad, who was in Japan 30 years ago, made shakuhachi without a master. He learned how by reverse-engineering and research. Later, a friend of his introduced him to a fellow who was/had been a shakuhachi apprentice for 10+ years, doing grunt work and stuff for his master. Well, after they met, talked shakuhachi and left, Pa later heard from his friend that the apprentice fellow got very depressed, because Pa was already doing what he had spent 10 years in hopes of doing. Not that Pa had made anything extraordinary, but it just goes to show, if you are attentive and careful, you can do in less than a year what apprentices spend 10 years to finally even attempt to do. Since most all learning comes from doing, not much can be gained from following a master: http://books.google.com/books?id=vxTqDr4PV9MC&pg=PA180&lpg=PA180&dq=chuang+tsu+wheelmaker&source=web&ots=yejJa8MNpv&sig=0XErhmDT-aMTEwVPTTrlYtsShc4&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=2&ct=result Ok, that's all! (for real this time ;-) )Sorry to pile it on thick.
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Chris Moran Approved
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Hello all, Kyle, it's very good to see you on this forum. I'm an aging shakuhachi student who admires your father's work quite a bit. I am also interested in Tusgaru shamisen and have followed your videos on YouTube with much interest. Do you know a reliable source for tanned dog skin? Also, have you ever seen a Japanese cedar gottan? http://nippon-kichi.jp/article_list.do;jsessionid=4DF9C2095EBE4EB7EB68CE7FE4243051?p=5815&ml_lang=en It would be an interesting project, I think, to consider a cedar-faced Tsugaru shamisen. What do you think?
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fiddlefella Approved
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Hi Chris Thanks for your kind words. Cool to hear that you play shakuhachi and also are interested in Tsugaru shamisen! I'm currently writing a book on how to make and play Tsugaru shamisen. You might be interested in it. In just 423 easy steps, you'll be able to pluck your own shamisen! I just finished proofreading, and now have to make the changes. But it should hopefully be done by the end of the year. Unfortunately, I don't know any sources for dog skin. I really wish I could find one. If you ever do find a source, please let me know! :-) Wow! I've never seen one of those! That's cool. Pa was saying that I should make a hard top shamisen (like that), but I wasn't quite sure how the sound would carry. Well, now I see that it's been done! I have to now do some searching to see how it sounds. Thanks for showing me that. That's a project that I think I'm probably gonna do sometime in the near-future. Good to hear from you! :-) All the best, Kyle
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Chris Moran Approved
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Happy to hear that you're writing a book, Kyle. Big job. BIG job. Congratulations on having the courage to do it. Turns out that the shamisen that I have is probably a Gidayu shamisen set up for bunraku music. It is very heavy. The neck is solid rosewood and heavy as a bag of bricks. The bachi that came with this shamisen is ebony with big thick ivory tips and the 'edge' is almost a quarter of an inch thick. The bridge is a good one full inch tall, made of black tortoise/turtle shell, presumably to accomodate the bachi's thickness, etc. The armrest on top of the dou is made of woven rattan covered in red urushi. Kakizakai-sensei (one of Yokoyama Katsuya's master shakuhachi students) speculated that it may have travelled over here in the 1930's with a bunraku puppet troupe. I'll post some pictures later on in the week. Of course, I now _really_ have no idea how I'm going to integrate this instrument into my musical studies! Last edited on Tue Oct 21st, 2008 04:40 am by Chris Moran |
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fiddlefella Approved
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Yeah. I hope for the book to be easy readin', yet consisting of everything you need to know to make it and play it. There are tons of pictures in the making section, as well as lots in the playing section. Ah yeah. From your description that *is* a gidayu shamisen. Wow, I can barely imagine an inch tall koma. Well, your gidayu shamisen could be used for a tsugaru shamisen if you file down your bachi (or get another) and get a shorter bridge! I skinned a gidayu shamisen once, and if I remember correctly, the dou was about the same size as my tsugaru shamisen. Thanks! That'll be cool to see pictures.
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Tsugaru Approved
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That sounds like an interesting project for the both of you. Kyle, that book of yours, is this going to be a history style book or general intro stuff with scores? I know it can be pricey, but if you were to send your shamisen out to get skinned, you would not regret it, because the sound they produce---(if skinned by the right shop)-- speaks for itself. On another note, how did you guys get involved in tsugaru shamisen? Was it hard to find a master where you live? As you can see what started this whole discussion was the titled section."Any tsugaru shamisen teachers in NYC" as there are none. Attachment: img_1633263_29127144_0.jpg (Downloaded 76 times)
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fiddlefella Approved
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-Kyle, that book of yours, is this going to be a history style book or general intro stuff with scores? Well, kind of neither. Though of the two, I guess it would side towards the general intro. It's more a DIY book. (which, like my involvement in shamisen, is gonna be very hands-on) After a brief introduction and history of the shamisen, it'll go right into a step-by-step process of how to build it (and skin it) with your very own hands. Making the dou, sao, neo, azuma sawari, etc. That'll take up about half of the book. It's going to be very in-depth with pictures. In fact, later, I'm going to add a chapter on tanning cat/dog skin. Anyway, after the How-To-Make section, there is the How to Play. There, folks will learn the techniques while playing through Rokudan. A description and How-To of the technique is included with a picture of it done. After that, I include scores to many classic tsugaru folk songs, as well as the go dai tsugaru pieces. So, in a nutshell, that's what it's gonna be. I'm planning on making a DVD (where all the pieces and techniques are demonstrated) to be included with it. -I know it can be pricey, but if you were to send your shamisen out to get skinned, you would not regret it, because the sound they produce---(if skinned by the right shop)-- speaks for itself. Yeah. Sometime I just might do that. However, since I made everything else, sending my shamisen to be skinned feels funny with me. I mean, I know I'm getting the skin tight enough, I just have the wrong kind of skin. It sounds tight,* just not crisp. My final try is I'm gonna tan my own cat skin and try stretching that. If that doesn't work (which I don't see why not, besides rupturing), then I'll concede. *and when the skin is tapped, the pitch is the same as a pro. skinned shamisen. -On another note, how did you guys get involved in tsugaru shamisen? Was it hard to find a master where you live? Well, 6 years ago, I started out by playing shakuhachi, learning from m' Pa. I was learning Komoi Jishi, so I got a cd (ensemble Nipponia) from my next door neighbor (who played shakuhachi too!). On the CD, I heard shamisen. I learned san kyoku/jiuta pieces on a nagauta shamisen I borrowed from a friend. A year later, I had started seeing this tsugaru shamisen player (Kevin Kmetz) play downtown very frequently. For some reason, I never talked to him. Another year had passed, and I was getting frustrated. I was wanting to learn folk songs (soran bushi, sado okesa, hoka), but had a real hard time learning them off of CDs. One day, I went up to Kevin and talked to him. He said he was giving lessons. At the time, being a minyo-man, I didn't like tsugaru at all, but since I really wanted to learn pieces, I took lessons from him. It was good. I learned basic technique which I never learned before (wrapping the pinky, etc). Plus, I learned many pieces. When I practiced the pieces at home, my borrowed nagauta shamisen didn't really seem to do the pieces justice. When I asked him how much a good Tsugaru shamisen would cost, he said roughly $1800. Yowza! While I could financialy afford it, my conciounce couldn't. (if you know what I mean) So, for the next 8 months, I reverse-engineered, measured and sketched one of his shamisen so I could build one. Then, he moved away. Fortunately, since I got the basics down from him, I continued learning on my own. So that's my shamisen history!
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