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| AAARRRRG!!! - Fiddle - Other Instruments - ezFolk Forums | |||||||||||||||
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Mack Aroni Approved
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Im trying to teach myself the fiddle, AND ITS GETTING REALLY FRUSTURATING!!! Is there NOTHING simple about this instrument?!? Even tuning it is impossible, the pegs keep popping out! Anyway, I think I figured out a method to learn the placement of the notes, To place a piece of paper underneith (please ignore the spelling) the strings, and with a chromatic tuner, write down the name of the note on the paper under the string, and learn the placement that way. Does this make sence to you guys? Is it even going to work? I think Ive been spoiled by frets. ARRG! thanks for your help! Mack
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banjo brad Super Moderator 
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Mack- Welcome to fiddle hell! This instrument will frustrate you even while beguiling you. Several things come to mind: 1) Take some lessons. 2) Get another player (or your instructor) to put thin pieces of tape on the fingerboard for the second and third fingers. You can do this yourself, several instruction books can give you the method of figuring out where exactly to put the tape. 3) Check out the "Fiddle Fretter" overlay: http://fiddlefork.com/fiddlefretter.php 4) Get a chromatic tuner and practice scales with long, slow bow strokes, making sure that you hit the right intonation by watching the tuner. 5) An alternative to #4, and probably better in the long run, is to get a program called FiddleScales ( http://home.paonline.com/zaikoski/fiddle/PROG.HTM ). It allows you to pick a scale and it shows you the finger & string while sounding the note. By playing along with it, you can finetune your fingering to get the exact sound. You can also put in a series of notes and have it play them for you - this could be of use later when trying to finetune phrases. Tuning - make sure you slightly push in on the pegs while turning them during tuning to keep them tight. I have fine tuners on all four strings, so once I get near the note, I can dial it in with them instead of playing tag with the pegs. By now, though, my strings have settled in and I very seldom have to tweak them into tune (had 'em on the fiddle since I bought it - 2003). Hope this helps! Brad EDITED: Added link to fiddle scales program. Last edited on Thu Feb 15th, 2007 09:18 pm by banjo brad ____________________ ezFolk Help Brad Prickly Pear Music Banjo Brad's ezFolk page TOTMC |
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Mack Aroni Approved
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Thanks for your valuable advice! It is much apreciated! What about my idea? is it even worth trying? BTW... I was just wondering about the clip on frets ... fiddle fork ... was it? how would that help tablaure wise? surely they dont have tabs like they would for guitar or banjo, which are strictly freted, as opposed to the fiddle which usually has none! Im not sure if Im explaining my self... check out any tab on http://www.ultimate-guitar.com .... these are the tabs which I am reffering to... Thanks again! -Mack Last edited on Fri Feb 16th, 2007 03:34 am by Mack Aroni |
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AmyDK Approved
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Brad, I've been playing the fiddle for a few years, and your suggestions are still really helpful (intonation is a killer for me). Question for you or other fiddlers - how often should one change fiddle strings? I've had mine on the fiddle since I got it (in 2003 as well  ), and I've always thought I should probably have changed them by now...I'm so used to changing my guitar strings often, so it's not the same with the fiddle? Amy
____________________ Amy's ezFolk page Amy on MySpace My Website |
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irishfiddler32 Approved
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Mack, Brad's advice is spot on...don't think I can even add anything. But, Brad...you gotta change your strings!! It really depends on how much you play, but currently, I'm only playing 2-4 days per week, for 1-3 hours at a time, and they've still gotta be changed at least every 2-3 months. Three years is way too long!!!
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banjo brad Super Moderator
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Mack- First, I don't think tab is the way to go on the fiddle - learn to read music, even if just enough to learn where the dot on the page is in regards to the finger and fingerboard. I have seen (at least) 4 different versions of fiddle tab, and they each have their own way of refering to the note on the fingerboard - and none of them are the same! The fiddle fretters basically are guides to finger placement - you would have to learn the scales and work with the attachment. I haven't used them, I'm learning the old fashioned way, by ear, but think they can be of help, just like the tape. The method you described, putting paper on the fingerboard and marking each note might work, but I think you would have a bit too much information on it to help you. If you have to stop and try to find each spot for every note, you are defeating the purpose. The tape is probably the closest to your proposal, and I would go with it. Irish- Since I play so much with a heavy metal practice mute (see my other posts on learning to fiddle, the family, the garage, etc.), I haven't reached the point where I feel I need to replace the strings.  Besides, the cost of fiddle strings, when I last priced them, gave me sticker shock! I replace the strings on my banjo when I break one, or when I took them off to replace the head, and they are less than $5 a set (5 strings, all longer than fiddle strings), so $20+ for 4 (short) strings, on my budget, is a major expense. The guitar gets changed probably every year or two, but those strings are still cheaper than fiddle strings.Brad
____________________ ezFolk Help Brad Prickly Pear Music Banjo Brad's ezFolk page TOTMC |
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Mack Aroni Approved
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Thanks for the advice! Can you please describe the tape method, then? Thanks! BTW, Brad, I side with you 100%, The strings are so freakn' expensive! an E string costed me $5 to replace, while guitar strings is $8 for six strings! I wanted to bite the sales rep's head off! 5 bucks for one string is quite a pretty penny! Just venting -Mack
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banjo brad Super Moderator
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Ok- Place a thin strip of tape (masking tape or, a great choice is Drafting tape, my choices) across the fingerboard approximately 1 1/8" , 2 1/2", and 3" from the nut. On the A and D string these should finger as B E, F# C#, and G D. You might want to double check with a tuner to make sure the intonation is correct. These are the basic finger positions for the index, middle and ring fingers. Good luck. Brad
____________________ ezFolk Help Brad Prickly Pear Music Banjo Brad's ezFolk page TOTMC |
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Patrick_Woolery Approved
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I have a sticker on my fiddle that is called a Don't Fret. Most music stores should be able to order them, if they don't have them in stock. It has colored lines where the frets would be if there were frets. Helps a lot. Looks sort of silly, but it doesn't move around the way a line of tape can over time. If your pegs are slipping, you need to find a way to keep them tight. As Brad said, you should push them in when you tune. Also, a line of chalk on each peg will supposedly add to the friction. I have also heard that you can put a little rosin (same as on the bow) onto the pegs to make them stick a little better. The best solution, though, is probably to take the fiddle to a repair person and have him/her ream the holes and scrape the pegs to make sure the angles match precisely. If it is a cheap fiddle this may never have matched up properly, or changes in humidity might have caused some changes in the shape of peg or head. Either way, get those pegs fitting properly. There are some old pictures I've seen of fiddlers with guitar-style tuners on their fiddles. Some people claim this will kill the tone, but they never seem to have tried it. I have not had trouble with my pegs, so have not had a reason to try it, but one day I might have someone give me a fiddle and I can then try some of these things. Regarding strings, I buy Black Diamond strings because they are cheap. Last time I got a set, it was $5 from Elderly Instruments. I have used some $30 Tomastik strings and been less pleased with the sound from my fiddle. My wife's instrument responds better with the more expensive strings. It really will depend on your particular instrument, it seems. I have even heard of people using cheap mandolin strings for fiddles. Sounds silly, but they tune to the same tuning, are about the same gauge, and are made for the same scale length. And you can find mandolin strings for like $4 a set. That's $2 per set of fiddle strings, if this works for you! And at the risk of being really bad, here, you can use mandolin tab with a fiddle that has markers for the "fret" positions. Just remember to put your fingers on the line, not behind, as with a fret. -Patrick
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Patrick_Woolery Approved
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I have a sticker on my fiddle that is called a Don't Fret. Most music stores should be able to order them, if they don't have them in stock. It has colored lines where the frets would be if there were frets. Helps a lot. Looks sort of silly, but it doesn't move around the way a line of tape can over time. If your pegs are slipping, you need to find a way to keep them tight. As Brad said, you should push them in when you tune. Also, a line of chalk on each peg will supposedly add to the friction. I have also heard that you can put a little rosin (same as on the bow) onto the pegs to make them stick a little better. The best solution, though, is probably to take the fiddle to a repair person and have him/her ream the holes and scrape the pegs to make sure the angles match precisely. If it is a cheap fiddle this may never have matched up properly, or changes in humidity might have caused some changes in the shape of peg or head. Either way, get those pegs fitting properly. There are some old pictures I've seen of fiddlers with guitar-style tuners on their fiddles. Some people claim this will kill the tone, but they never seem to have tried it. I have not had trouble with my pegs, so have not had a reason to try it, but one day I might have someone give me a fiddle and I can then try some of these things. Regarding strings, I buy Black Diamond strings because they are cheap. Last time I got a set, it was $5 from Elderly Instruments. I have used some $30 Tomastik strings and been less pleased with the sound from my fiddle. My wife's instrument responds better with the more expensive strings. It really will depend on your particular instrument, it seems. I have even heard of people using cheap mandolin strings for fiddles. Sounds silly, but they tune to the same tuning, are about the same gauge, and are made for the same scale length. And you can find mandolin strings for like $4 a set. That's $2 per set of fiddle strings, if this works for you! And at the risk of being really bad, here, you can use mandolin tab with a fiddle that has markers for the "fret" positions. Just remember to put your fingers on the line, not behind, as with a fret. -Patrick
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holleyhall Approved 
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If your lucky your fiddle might have some small screws with a flat head top that go through the top of the peg into neck. These screws can be tightened and will fix the problem. Another option would be to get a small fine tuner screw-on assembly that attaches at the other end of the bridge end where you can fine tune the string. As Patrick mentioned if you push in the pegs in right as you tune them that will help (if you don't have the built- in screws) . I prefer older strings that have been broken in to avoid the tuning problems. but you should change them periodically and it is definitley worth the extra $$$ to get good strings because they make a huge difference in the sound. as for playing as Brad says practice, practice and keep practicing. Focus on ear training and getting the bow techniques down. the bow is your point of passion where you can really make the sound happen..... Holley Last edited on Wed Feb 21st, 2007 01:01 am by holleyhall ____________________ http://ezfolk.com/audio/holleyhall |
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Mack Aroni Approved
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Thanks guys, someone mentioned to get my fiddle operated on. Im not liking that Idea. My fiddle is an antiqu, I thnk ....or is at least really old. From what I was told... It was handcrafted by a student of someone really big.... the name escapes me at this present time. Im not happy with the idea of some guy taking a knife to the intricate craftsmanship. any suggestions?
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banjo brad Super Moderator
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Mack- If you're still having trouble with the pegs, I would take the fiddle to your local friendly music store/luthier and have a tune-up. The pegs may need some reaming and fitting, or need to be replaced. This is not major surgery, it will need to be done periodically during the life of the instrument. Pegs, over time, can lose their roundness, swell, shrink, polish up and become slick; sound posts can get out-of-place and need to be reset, and other small, but important things that should be handled by a good luthier will happen. They may also be able to give you more information on your fiddle in regards to it's maker, etc. Brad
____________________ ezFolk Help Brad Prickly Pear Music Banjo Brad's ezFolk page TOTMC |
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hyldemoer Approved
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Mark, if your fiddle pegs are slipping my suggestion is to start with the least invasive and least expensive. Its winter. I see you live in New York so you probably have the heat on which takes humidity out of the air and out of wood. Your tuning pegs are wood. They might have lost moisture and have temporarily shrunk. You can humidify the room you keep your fiddle in or you can put a humidifier in the fiddle or case. The brand I use is called "dampit" but I imagine any brand would work just the same. Its nothing special. If extra humidity does not resolve your problem, yup, your best bet is to get advice from a luthier. As for your learning the placement of the notes, just because you might have your finger on tape doesn't mean the notes will be in tune. A lot of it has to do with how you touch the strings. Learn to play your fiddle with your ears, not your eyes. Start simple, with tunes you know by heart. If you can put them on the fiddle, an excellent way of practicing the tunes is to practice them in a darkened room, so you have no distractions and only the sound of your fiddle to focus on. Last edited on Mon Mar 12th, 2007 03:59 am by hyldemoer |
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Franz Still Approved
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If you want really good strings tomastik dominance (SP?) is the way to go they are expensive but worth it, and there is nothing wrong with good ol' cheap steel ones either they give you a brighter tone which is good for old time fiddle. And the last post really sums it up it is a son gun to play fiddle in winter, and in humid weather. Another thing for tunning is if you are a little sharp pull up on the string a little and that will bring it down ussally pretty close to where you wanna be also if you are flat press on the string on the space in between the nut and the peg and it is the same affect. Also Because you are just begining i would sugest that you buy new pegs called casparic pegs (Sp?) they have little screws in them so you don't have to push in them when you are tunning. they will hold place for you and get fine tunners for all of your strings after you pregress you will need them less and less and than you will only need on on the E string but of course have that done by a luthier violins are very easy to mess up. And we are in a folk music forum so i would go with whoever said learn with your ears first. I am trained classicly which is alot of sheet music, and when i got into folk music and have to rely on ear training. wich i have none so i have alot of truble. so don't get dependent on sheet music or you will make you fiddle time harder then it needs to be but you still need to learn to read music for the violin/fiddle because it is just a nice thing to know. also some one said something about Dampits, they are awesome you should find a hydrometer if your case does not have one and when the moister is below 40 you need to soak you dampit to keep your fiddle from cracking (I learned this the hard way) and take it out when it is above 70. mainly because the area between 40 and 70 and the best level of humidity you can have for you fiddle. The damit goes right into your F hole the the hole closest to your face. And you can keep in it when you play. Sorry for the spelling mistakes and i wish nothing but luck for you into the world of fiddle. you have joined the dark side.
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hyldemoer Approved
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Franz Still wrote:If you want really good strings tomastik dominance (SP?) is the way to go they are expensive but worth it, and there is nothing wrong with good ol' cheap steel ones either they give you a brighter tone which is good for old time fiddle. Steel? Some fiddlers use Prims. I use D'Addario Helicore. Honestly, any string is going to be an improvement if you haven't changed them in a while. <snip>
Not if you're playing with all steel strings like Prims or Helicores. Steel strings really need all four fine tuners unless you get fancy spring tuneing pegs installed. By the way, nonsteel strings aren't usually designed to be played with the add on fine tuners. They'll still work but if someone who is used to better quality of sound borrows your fiddle, they might make a comment. If you have a tail piece with the fine tuners in it (instead of as an add on), they're ok to play with any kind of string. Mark, This humidity thing is kind of important beyond just the tuning pegs. The tuning pegs are a different kind of wood than the rest of the fiddle so that might be why it problems tend to start there first. The whole fiddle might be needing more or less moisture. Look inside the fiddle. You should see a wooden sound post in there. If your fiddle gets too dry the sound post can shrink and move. If it does the least that will happen is you won't get the best sound out of your fiddle. It can also fall down which would leave your fiddle vulnerable for cracking. If you've had all the strings off the fiddle or all with loosened tension, the sound post can move or fall too. Its pressure that holds it in place. That's why its a good idea to take any fiddle of questionable past or long storage to a luthier for a look over. They'll check the seams and the angle of things. They have a special tool for moving the sound post into correct placement. Fiddles are held together with hide glue. Traditionally they do that so they can be repaired or adjusted easier.
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hyldemoer Approved
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Franz Still wrote:And we are in a folk music forum so i would go with whoever said learn with your ears first. I am trained classicly which is alot of sheet music, and when i got into folk music and have to rely on ear training. wich i have none so i have alot of truble. so don't get dependent on sheet music or you will make you fiddle time harder then it needs to be but you still need to learn to read music for the violin/fiddle because it is just a nice thing to know. Franz, Having to learn tunes by ear was a big stretch for all of us. When I've taken a class where there's Classically trained violinists in it, you folks might complain about having to learn by ear but you catch on a lot quicker than those of us who were still learning where the notes are on the neck. Perhaps the complaints about struggle comes from your having come from a place where you were once comfortable on the instrument but now in new territiory? About needing to be able to read music; I can read music and agree that its a nice thing to be able to do but some of my fiddle teachers have claimed they can't read music. All of them have taught me by aural methods. A lesson might be spent introducing new patterns of a tune phrase by phrase until we can play it through. The lesson always ends with them playing the tune while I record it. I listen to that recording over and over until its in my brain and then go back and attempt to play it. If its in my brain good enough it seems to come out at my fingers a lot easier.
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| ezFolk Forums > Other Instruments > Fiddle > AAARRRRG!!! | |
